RE: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Pastor Murray said:
" Personally, I came to terms with the claim regarding Christ's resurrection years ago - that having been resolved, everything else one might want to say is merely commentary."

Agreed- the resurrection is a huger issue in the big picture. I just wish the smaller questions had some clear answers. But it seems any belief system has their own issues. If I left Christianity, which belief system is better? I think the others have just as many flaws, and Christianity offers love, forgiveness, power of change, maturity, relationship with God, etc.

But I can understand Ed's viewpoint that if there are (too many) specifcs in a certain religion it may be better to dump it and be 'lost' rather than follow something that is self-contradictory or doesn't make logical sense. I used to be a "black & white" Christian and I am now one exploring the grey zone. My "black & white" church and Christian friends are concerned for me and don't understand me, I think. They are wondering when I'm going to pass the heretic line that is drawn in the sand, and if I already crossed it.

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Murray Hogg
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:04 PM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] A theology question (imminent return of Christ)

Hi Ed,

I have to say, so as to be perfectly clear at the outset, that my current reading is focused pretty much on material for my post-grad thesis (primarily epistemology, Johannine studies and pneumatology) with science-religion being what I read in such off moments as I can manage. I mention it so you know why I unfortunately won't be able to engage with other issues at any great depth (such as eschatology <smile>) regardless of how important such concerns may seem to others. This is the long winded way of saying - "thanks for the list of references, but..."!

Is the piece on the infidels' site the same as the one on your homepage (http://tinyurl.com/39wy4o)? Just asking so it saves me the task of re-reading the material.

In respects of what you write in your post, I can only say that for the Christian EVERYTHING is read through the fact of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

That this event occurred 2000 years ago doesn't seem quite so significant when contrasted against the significance of the event itself. And as for OT prophecies? Well, the NT writers are pretty clear that they were interpreting the OT from a post-resurrection perspective and that this perspective informed their reading of the OT (see John 12:12-19).

The simple point is that worrying about a 2000 year delay, or the nebulous nature of the OT prophecies, or even the over-enthusiastic predictions of first-century believers, whilst accepting the resurrection as an event in history (as I do) would be to strain at a gnat whilst swallowing a camel.

Personally, I came to terms with the claim regarding Christ's resurrection years ago - that having been resolved, everything else one might want to say is merely commentary.

Blessings,
Murray Hogg
Pastor, East Camberwell Baptist Church, Victoria, Australia
Post-Grad Student (MTh), Australian College of Theology

Edward T. Babinski wrote:
> Hi Bernie, Murray, and Christine,
>
> Murray, your relatively calm view is not that of all Christians. For instance Christian "end time prediction" books and movies are a money-making industry, and those same sorts of false prophecies have a past reaching from Jesus' day to our own, 2000 years and counting.
>
> Meanwhile if you will forgive my boldness in pointing out what appears a little obvious, the New Testament is now older than the O.T. was when the N.T. was first written, and still no return, no further word from God -- unless of course you're Pentecostal *smile* and even then, it's not like a booming from Mt. Sinai heard by hundreds of thousands of tribesmen followed by seeing God's backside pass in front of that tribe, it's not like getting to see the Red Sea part, it's not like getting to meet "many saints risen from their graves after they entered the holy city and showed themselves to many" as one Gospel asserts. Neither is there a clear prophecy in the O.T. concerning a dying and then rising and then bodily ascending and then bodily returning Messiah -- yet only a God who is omnipotent could have prophesied such a thing (instead we get a prophecy about an old coat being divided between Roman soldiers, or is that a prophecy at all or just a matter
> of stretching an O.T. psalm out of proportion?).
>
> In the past century predictions of Jesus' soon return have grown with the rise of Dispensationalism, and continued to grow after the League of Nations accepted the Balfour Declaration securing passage to Israel for European Jews, and false prophesies continued to arise during each of the World Wars, again during the Cold War, again after Israel's founding in 1948, and during rumblings of war between Israel and surrounding Arab nations in the late 1970s (even Pres. Reagan said he thought Ezekiel was being fulfilled, and Hal Lindsey predicted it was the last generation, a countdown to Armageddon, and Jesus would return a generation after Israel's founding, i.e., by 1988). Such predictions kept coming as we neared the Y2K disaster that never arose. Some, said 2008 could be it, 60 years after Israel's founding. Now some are saying 2012 will be it.
>
> For the record, I am not a Christian but an apostate. I have more questions today than answers I previously thought I had, though I retain some sympathy with moderate to liberal Christian theologians attempting to rescue the Bible from fundamentalism yet still retain it as the "word of God." As for myself I find inspiration not only in parts of the Bible but in many other books, songs and people, and no longer place a firm line between people or ideas that are "biblical, holy and saved" and those that are "'unbiblical,' 'unholy,' 'unsaved'" like I used to.
>
> I invite you if you're interested in the meaning of "end times" verses in the Bible to read my online piece:
>
> The Lowdown on God's Showdown
>
> http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/
>
> It delves into more verses than I mentioned in my two emails and includes explanatory footnotes.
>
> Below are my favorite books on the topic:
>
> The Stars Will Fall from Heaven: Cosmic Catastrophe in the New Testament and Its World (Library of New Testament Studies 347, 2007) delves into conclusive evidence for a belief in the end of the created world in works written either just before or during the N.T. period.
>
> Jesus of Nazareth: Millenarian Prophet
>
> The Apocalyptic Jesus: A Debate
>
> Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999).
>
> Audio series on The Historical Jesus that covers this topic on one of the CDs, though not as thoroughly as in the book:
>
> http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?pc=Professor&cid=643
>
> In God's Time - The most moderate Evangelical book on the topic, attempts a reconciliation perhaps like Murray's. But the other books which present a bit more radical view also should not be overlooked.
>
> http://www.ingodstime.com/
>
> The video for the above book is even sold along with N.T. Wright's videos at this website:
>
> http://www.wesleyministrynetwork.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Mon Oct 13 13:14:50 2008