RE: [asa] Thermodynamics & Eternal Universe - A Question

Thermodynamics applier to an open system provided that that open system
is in contact with another system (of systems) and the composite system
is closed itself. The second law applies to the composite, closed
system. We do not know if the universe is closed in this sense.

Moorad

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Cooper
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 1:57 AM
To: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Thermodynamics & Eternal Universe - A Question

By "closed system" I meant one that is within a larger environment, and
thus having boundaries. [Also, energy can be exchanged between
environment and a closed system.] The universe does not seem to fit
this view as we do not have an outer environment with which to work.
I'm not really sure it is appropriate to qualify the universe as fitting
either an open or closed system, though I have seen it argued both ways:
God caused energy (closed system view), which became matter (open
system), to enter our universe.

As I see it, we are limited in applying the 2nd law to the universe
because of the lack of boundary conditions for our system. I am only an
amateur here, unfortunately, so perhaps a physicist will address it more
appropriately.

"Coope"

----- Original Message ----
From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 1, 2008 2:04:06 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Thermodynamics & Eternal Universe - A Question

As I understand it the universe IS a closed system and the 2nd law of
thermodynamics applies. Our solar system, however, is an open system as
the sun energizes the earth and thus the 2nd law does apply to the
universe as a whole but not to any specific solar system, or galaxy
either I suppose.

Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 2:38 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Thermodynamics & Eternal Universe - A Question

My understanding of what physicists favor is that the 2nd law is very
limited in its application to the universe since the universe is not
demonstrably a closed system. The conservation laws are local laws
addressed from single reference frames.

Yet, the application of the 2nd law is certainly not all non-sense
because it seems clear that the net entropy of the universe only
increases with age (even during a collapsing scenario, I assume), which
puts no small burden on someone to show how this irreversibility gets
reversed. :)

Given that the universe is accelerating in its expansion, the
implication does not favor an oscillating universe view. Of course, if
Dark Engery poops-out in the future, then there may still be a chance of
collapse though the critical density is very close to a flat universe
now.

"Coope"

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Christine Smith
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 12:38 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: [asa] Thermodynamics & Eternal Universe - A Question

Hi all,

A quick question to all the physicists out there...I was reading one of
the articles on the ASA faith-science new blog, and came across the
following:

"Materialistic explanations of the universe have to rely on one of two
explanations for where the universe came from. The first is that the
universe is eternal. This idea runs into problems almost immediately
because of the second law of thermodynamics. This law states that the
useable energy in a closed system is constantly decreasing, which means
that an eternally old universe would have run out of useful energy by
now. To solve this problem, some physicists argue that the universe can
reset itself periodically by collapsing and re-forming in what is known
as an oscillating universe. While there are logical problems with this
idea (see William Lane Craig's The Kalam Cosmological Argument), it
still leaves us with our current universe having a starting point."

My question is...if the universe is argued to be eternal, does the 2nd
law of thermodynamics even make sense to begin with? I'm having a hard
time conceptualizing the argument without a reference to time, as in
"why should we assume the energy would have run out by now?...what if
we're close to the beginning of eternity?"

Thanks ahead of time for your responses :)
In Christ,
Christine (ASA member, who's definitely not a physicist)

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Thu Oct 2 10:41:05 2008