[asa] Re: Note from our Elders

See also http://www.energionpubs.com/wordpress/?p=921

Where Henry Neufeld seems to be sharing much of sentiments

<quote>
In contrast, as a "creationist" who accepts the theory of evolution, I
believe that the entire universe is designed. That universal design is
the biggest problem there is for IDC, because IDC requires places that
are less and more designed so they can detect the differences. IDC
doesn't try to demonstrate that the universe is designed, as many
people, especially Christians, believe it does. Rather, it is
attempting to prove a variation in God's involvement.

Of course Dembski will not admit an evolutionary pathway no matter how
many steps you discover. Why? Because that would mean totally
abandoning everything he has worked for. If all the animals truly are
equal, and none are more equal than others, then what is there for
Dembski and his ilk to detect? The field is different, but the method
is the same as the constant attack on new fossil discoveries by the
young earth crowd. One new specimen, in their propaganda, simply means
two new gaps that must be filled. And of course they have no similar
requirement to fulfill.

</quote>

Neufeld's is a trackback to a posting at PT and has received its own
trackback to http://ianramjohn.wordpress.com/2007/09/23/the-party-continues/

On 9/23/07, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Note from our Elders (Norman Oklahoma Baptist Trinity Church). The
> full text has recently been removed from their website
>
> <quote>In about three weeks, Trinity will be undertaking a very
> intense and strategic effort to present the gospel to the University
> of Oklahoma. God has given us incredible mission fields here in
> Norman with our proximity to a campus that welcomes thousands of
> students, many of whom have either never heard the gospel or have
> rejected the truth of the scriptures.
>
> In our effort to penetrate the university campus with the gospel, we
> are bringing Dr. William Dembski to OU on September 16-17. Dr.
> Dembski is one of the foremost experts and leaders in the Intelligent
> Design movement which is challenging the evolutionary and naturalistic
> worldview that is so hostile to God. He will preach at Trinity Sunday
> morning and then make several presentations at OU during the rest of
> his time in Norman. His presentations will be open to the public
> generally but will specifically target students and professors within
> several science departments at OU. In case you are wondering, these
> departments and their teachings are not friends of Christianity.
>
> We are working diligently to prepare for Dr. Dembski's time in Norman.
> Our college students spent the summer reading and studying, on a
> weekly basis, in order to be able to share and discuss the issues that
> will arise from the presentations on campus. We are working with
> other churches and organizations that share our vision for evangelism
> and truth to help with financial aspects of this project.
>
> Make no mistake about it, our goal for this project is not to win a
> debate or to simply present an alternative worldview. Our prayer for
> this entire effort is for God to open doors so the power of His gospel
> would be made known to groups of people who need to hear the truth.
> The issues of intelligent design and evolution are far greater than
> simply differing perspectives about science. The overall issue is one
> explaining the world in which we live. Another issue, Naturalism,
> eliminates God from the equation and thus affects every other part of
> life. That makes this issue one of vital gospel importance!
>
> We earnestly need your help. It is never cheap to make this kind of
> gospel investment. We have many expenses such as speaker honorarium
> and expenses, facility rentals at OU, meals, lodging, promotion,
> advertising, etc. The goal that Trinity has set is $5,000.
>
> If we are able to raise approximately $10,000, we would be capable of
> doing this event well and promoting it so the most people would know
> about it. Would you pray about giving to this project? This event has
> the potential to affect literally thousands with the gospel. What an
> incredible opportunity!
>
> We also need people to commit to pray faithfully for this event. Pray
> for Dr. Dembski, for our college students, for believing professors
> who will be involved, and for the gospel to be proclaimed with
> boldness and power!
>
> Being thankful and watchful for what God will do,
> </quote>
>
> Thus was set in motion an event which exposed the scientific vacuity
> of ID. In this case however, its victims were not just science but
> also religion. Let me explain:
>
> Dembski's presentation was followed by a Q&A session in which student
> after student exposed the scientific vacuity of ID. The coup de grace
> was deliver by Phillip Klebba, Professor of Chemistry and Biochemistry
> at the University of Oklahoma. It was Klebba's relentless questions
> during the Q&A of Dembski's talkat the Oklahoma University in Norman
> Oklahoma which forced Dembski to admit to the level of ignorance that
> is required for ID.
>
> See: http://endogenousretrovirus.blogspot.com/2007/09/irreducible-complexity-reflects-human.html
>
> Klebba wrote an op-ed in the student newspaper
> http://hub.ou.edu/articles/article.php?article_id=1009840354&search_id=307049470
>
> <quote>As a researcher who understands the biochemistry that was the
> main subject of the lecture, I was surprised to find the discussion
> much less substantive than I anticipated.
>
> It was a bit more like the naive questions of a teenager than the keen
> insights of an erudite philosopher.</quote>
>
> Dembski, when asked what would convince him that evolution could
> explain the flagellum, admitted that he would need a step by step,
> mutation by mutation, second by second replay of the evolution of the
> flagellum before he would admit that evolution explains its origin.
>
> Remember the Baptist Trinity Church who had invited Dembski in the
> hope of penetrating the university with the Gospel?
>
> <quote>We also need people to commit to pray faithfully for this
> event. Pray for Dr. Dembski, for our college students, for believing
> professors who will be involved, and for the gospel to be proclaimed
> with boldness and power!</quote>
>
> They may have received what they prayed for, but not necessarily what
> they expected.
>
> Here we notice a congregation of well meaning Baptists who are led to
> believe that Intelligent Design is a scientific argument which can be
> succesfully used to convince students at a local university to accept
> the gospel
>
> <quote>We freely admit that Intelligent Design does have religions
> implications…as do evolution, naturalism, materialism and in our
> opinion all beliefs concerning the origin of life. Religious
> implications do not and cannot invalidate the truth or merit of an
> argument or scientific theory.</quote>
>
> By linking religious faith to Intelligent Design, these elders ignored
> the warnings by St Augustine and now have to deal with the fall out of
> this event. Countless sites on the internet are blogging about this,
> exposing how the students relentlessly questioned Dembski and got him
> to admit that not only apes and humans do not share a common ancestry
> but also that ID will never accept evolutionary pathways as
> explanations for the flagellum. This is the new era of the Church of
> the Flagellum it seems.
>
>
> http://endogenousretrovirus.blogspot.com/2007/09/dembski-affair-part-2-students-have.html
>
> <quote>But Im afraid that Jesus let those poor, poor Trinity
> Creationists down. God wanted nothing to do with Dembski during the
> rest of the Q&A... and the students ate him alive. Student after
> student, grad student, some not looking a day over 18, micro students,
> and towards the end, and art student, took a bite. I will either get
> audio up, or write up a transcript while we're working on the audio,
> to honor each of those students that stood up and made Dembski answer
> their questions . Not moving from the mic, repeating themselves, until
> they got an answer, or a final sign that Demski would not answer their
> question. Logan (Im going to embarass the hell out of you, sorry!),
> was adorably nervous, but you know what he got Dembski to say? After
> several minutes of tapdancing, and Logan not budging, rephrasing his
> question several times, Dembski finally stated that he did not accept
> that humans evolved from another species.</quote>
>
> Perhaps people on this group may object to may warnings in the past
> about the scientific vacuity of ID, but surely these events show that
> ID may have even worse impact on issues of religious faith.
>

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Received on Mon Sep 24 23:27:17 2007