Re: [asa] PvM's View of What Science IS

Hello all,

Burgy writes:
"> Free will, which I assert I have, is simply the
> capability to make a
> decision regardless of what "particles are hitting
> particles" in my
> brain. Much of what I do, and I presume that much of
> what other humans
> do, is "go with the flow," and, as such, is probably
> NOT exercises of
> free will. But there are times, and I suspect for
> most these times might
> comes many times during a day, when free will is
> exercised. That means
> simply this -- no scientific investigation, even in
> principle, could
> possibly tell in advance whether I will choose A or
> B (or something
> else)."

Though I'm not firm in this position, I think I would
define free will a bit differently. I would define it
as a God-given capacity for us to choose something
contrary to God's will, something which is sinful
(thus, it is tied to our awarness of the moral law).
This is in contrast to something you might term "free
choice" or "freedom of action", which I would equate
to simple decisions that have no moral aspect to them
(should I buy a blue car or a red car?) Thus, I would
say that animals have only freedom of choice, but not
free will, whereas we have the capacity for both;
consequently, humans have fallen, but animals have not
(and cannot).

In Christ,
Christine

--- Carol or John Burgeson <burgytwo@juno.com> wrote:

> Moorad posted: "I do not equate using human
> rationality to understand and
> solve problems with the scientific method
> necessarily. The latter needs
> the former; however, the latter does not exhaust all
> the problems that
> the human mind is confronted with. In fact, deep
> fundamental questions
> are often not scientific at all in nature. I
> believe that kinds of
> knowledge must be characterized by a subject matter
> and the subject
> matter determines what kind of evidence is used to
> establish the truth or
> falsehood of statements in that particular kind of
> knowledge. The reason
> religion is not the purview of science is that it
> deals with the exercise
> of human free will, which cannot be reduced to the
> purely physical. "
>
> I can buy that.

I'm good with that too :)

>
> Dave posted: "This allows psychology, sociology and
> related studies to be
> scientific
> despite the fact that they deal with the activities
> of human beings."
>
> Such, when they deal with statistical probabilities,
> probably qualify.
> But I maintain that when they address an individual
> person, they cannot,
> even in principle, predict how that person will
> decide on something.
>
> Moorad asked (of someone else): "You tell me what is
> free will."
>
> Free will, which I assert I have, is simply the
> capability to make a
> decision regardless of what "particles are hitting
> particles" in my
> brain. Much of what I do, and I presume that much of
> what other humans
> do, is "go with the flow," and, as such, is probably
> NOT exercises of
> free will. But there are times, and I suspect for
> most these times might
> comes many times during a day, when free will is
> exercised. That means
> simply this -- no scientific investigation, even in
> principle, could
> possibly tell in advance whether I will choose A or
> B (or something
> else).
>
> I attribute to God the fact that I became a
> Christian at age 31. It was
> not my decision -- it was His. But once I was a
> Christian, it was a
> series of the exercise of my free will as to what I
> would do because of
> this new relationship. Knowing very little about t
> he Christian faith, I
> remember pondering this question, and coming up with
> just two decisions
> (to start with). One was that I would be in church
> Sunday mornings and
> two we would begin at once to adhere to the biblical
> tithe. Other
> decisions would come later; two were enough to start
> with. I had the free
> will to decide otherwise.; to add all sorts of
> auxiliary positions. But I
> did not.
>
> Moorad wrote: "I personally would not characterize
> psychology, social and
> related studies as scientific."
>
> While I sympathize with that position, I think it
> comes down to a simple
> question of definition. Most of the world does see
> them as sciences;
> arguing otherwise is just an argument over
> definitions.
>
> As a physicist who barely made it through a
> beginning psychology course
> at Carnegie Tech in 1952, I did not see it then as
> "scientific." More as
> mumbo jumbo. <G>
>
> Finally: Dave posted (to me): " yours is a common
> definition, but it
> applies to what is better understood as strict
> determinism, that is,
> everything occurs within an inexorable causal nexus.
> However, my
> decisions fall within a causal domain, but it is not
> inexorable."
>
> I'm sorry. I just do not understand what you are
> talking about.
>
> "There are some psychologists and sociologists who
> have claimed that our
> decisions are simply part of the inexorable causal
> nexus, that freedom is
> a delusion. But this means that their thoughts are
> not any more rational
> than the flight of a rock (velocity, gravity, air
> resistance, etc.), and
> so without reason. Our reason has to be a kind of
> initiative cause to
> produce rational events."
>
> At least we can agree on this part. <G>
>
> "Indeterminism is a random matter, which cannot
> produce rational
> consequences except by accident--the famous monkeys
> producing
> Shakespeare. It doesn't matter whether it is totally
> random or occurs
> within statistical bounds. If there is a text
> produced, it is not
> detectable by the indeterminate producer."
>
> Again, this seems to be off my point.
>
> My point is this (I may be repeating myself): When I
> exercise my free
> will to choose between A and B, I am doing so
> non-naturally
> (supernaturally, if you prefer that word). No set of
> observations and
> mathematics can, even in principle, predict which I
> will choose. The
> material universe changes in a wholly new direction,
> and I'm to blame (or
> praise).
>
> Burgy
> www.burgy.50megs.com/one.htm
> My review of ONE WORLD, by Polkinghorne
>
> "Any one thing in the creation is sufficient to
> demonstrate a Providence
> to a humble and grateful mind." --Epictetus

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Received on Tue Sep 18 12:52:24 2007