Re: [asa] Baylor, Marks, and Uncommon Descent

I was at Baylor last year for a theology-and-culture conference ("The World
and the Christian Imagination" --
http://www.baylor.edu/ifl/index.php?id=29241). John Milbank was the keynote
speaker. It was fabulous. There was a panel on theology and science.
Stephen Barr, a physicist and author of "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith,"
gave an interesting talk on quantum theory and consciousness -- no
materialist, he, by a longshot -- much of his work is about how physics does
not support materialism -- but not a "strong ID" advocate either. Michael
Hanby, a Baylor theology prof. who was critical of *both* ID and Darwinism,
gave an interesting talk on a "radical orthodoxy" perspective on creation.
There was much discussion after his talk about how to avoid the extremes of
ID'ism and scientism, with a wide variety of opinions expressed. My
impression of Baylor after that conference is that it's a big and diverse
place where lots of interesting things are happening, and that it can't
possibly be reduced to some culture warrior's slogan.

On 9/3/07, skrogh <panterragroup@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I went to Baylor. Graduated in '82 with a BS in *Geology*, prior to the
> Polanyi Inst. I didn't get any of the "wink and nod either." But on later
> trips to Waco, I did get to hear from my old professors how they resented
> not having any input about this institute, especially how they were
> initially putting it under the College of Arts and Sciences' umbrella. That
> was a primary protest. One professor, Joe Yelderman, was asked by some
> reporter for either the local news or one of Baylor's own publication what
> his thoughts were on some subject about the institute. I believe his
> response was of sorts, "Look, we don't have time to go around arguing with
> some think-tank, we are actually *doing* geologic work here.
>
>
> Stephen J. Krogh, P.G.
> President
> The PanTerra Group
> environmental consultants and scientists
> Dallas, Texas
> 214.522.5600
> http://panterragroup.home.mindspring.com/
> =========================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]*On
> Behalf Of *David Opderbeck
> *Sent:* Monday, September 03, 2007 7:31 AM
> *To:* Michael Roberts
> *Cc:* PvM; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Baylor, Marks, and Uncommon Descent
>
> Gosh, I went to an evangelical Christian college, and I never even
> realized I was being treated like meat puppet with a wink and a nod by the
> faculty who taught me! I'm so glad I understand this now! All this time, I
> thought those folks had sacrificed the higher pay and prestige they could
> have earned at other universities because they felt called to help kids like
> me integrate faith with learning -- to have a faith that seeks
> understanding. I thought they were teaching me to read deep and wide, to
> think critically, to soak up the thought of great Christian minds, to
> appreciate great art, literature, and music, and to love all truth as God's
> truth. I thought they were graciously giving me the foundation that helped
> me excel in law school and later in life within the context of God's mission
> for the world. Now I know better!
>
> Seriously -- if any UcD folks still follow this list, you should be
> ashamed of the simplistic, fanatical nonsense that has been spilled here.
> Thank goodness I've been banned from commenting over there, because I'd
> probably waste a morning and end up in knots.
>
> On 9/3/07, Michael Roberts <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Pim
> >
> > didn't you know? UD is a spoof site set up by atheists to bring the
> > whole
> > Intelligent Design movement into disrepute?
> >
> > That is the most irreducibly complex interpretation of it.
> >
> > Michael
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "PvM" <pvm.pandas@gmail.com>
> > To: "AmericanScientificAffiliation" < asa@calvin.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 4:14 AM
> > Subject: [asa] Baylor, Marks, and Uncommon Descent
> >
> >
> > > In the last few days, some interesting developments have taken place,
> > > culminating in some strange and counterproductive behavior by the
> > > Uncommon Descent site.
> > >
> > > What has happened is best described in a posting at UcD by Denyse
> > > O'Leary
> > >
> > http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/baptist-university-pulls-plug-on-evolutionary-informatics-lab-links-to-intelligent-design-fatal/
> > >
> > > Baylor University removed Robert Marks' website until Marks would
> > > place some clear markers on the page that this so called 'laboratory'
> > > was not associated with Baylor.
> > >
> > > As a side note, Denyse's historical interpretation of what happened at
> > > Baylor seems a bit revisionist
> > >
> > > <quote>"Dembski's ordeal", above, refers to the Michael Polanyi Center
> > > , a previous ID think-tank headed by Dembski that Baylor
> > > suppressed.</quote>
> > >
> > > Of interest to ASA may be Denyse's spin about Baylor, a Christian
> > > university that in my opinion for excellent reasons distances itself
> > > from Intelligent Design. That Marks collaborated with Dembski and
> > > formed a 'lab' may have added to the frustration. That the lab was
> > > hailed as a great victory for Intelligent Design may have been the
> > > icing on the cake.
> > >
> > > <quote>
> > > Denyse O'Leary: A typical "Christian" university like Baylor battens
> > > off the wealth of Christians who can afford college for their kids, on
> > > the understanding that it brokers the relationship between Christians
> > > and an increasingly hostile secular elite - an elite that often
> > > displays a general contempt for traditional religious freedoms.
> > > </quote>
> > >
> > > Is this all about traditional religious freedoms then? Does religious
> > > freedom mean that anything religious should be allowed to be taught at
> >
> > > Baylor?
> > >
> > > <quote>The understanding is that - (a wink and a nod) - the real world
> > > is irrelevant to the pious fantasies of Christians. But in large parts
> > > of North America, for some unknown reason, Christians are a large,
> > > powerful, and affluent group. So they must be taught to adapt. A wink
> > > and a nod in many a faculty lounge, I am sure.
> > >
> > > Christians must be educated in such a way that they present no threat
> > > to the secular establishment supported by their taxes, which makes the
> > > laws and rules they must obey.
> > >
> > > At this point, you, clever reader, have probably already tumbled to
> > > the one weakness in so elegant a strategy for battening off the wealth
> >
> > > of Christianity while drawing its sting: What if there were clear
> > > evidence that - for example - Darwinism or materialism is not actually
> > > a reasonable account of reality. The leadership of such a university
> > > would lose most of its intellectual capital
> > > </quote>
> > >
> > > Of course, Darwinism or materialism are two very different concepts.
> > > While Denyse, who admits to not be a scientist, may not be familiar
> > > with the differences, it should come as no surprise that the Discovery
> > > Institute's approach has been to cloud the distinctions between
> > > science and philosophy to suggest that Darwinism and science in
> > > general, by using methodological naturalism, are forms of
> > > philosophical naturalism.
> > >
> > > So what if, as the evidence strongly suggests, Darwinism is a
> > > reasonable account of reality? Some of our children may be convinced
> > > by poor 'scientific' arguments to adhere to the viewpoints of the
> > > Discovery Institute and many of its ID followers? Surely, as Augustine
> > > observed, such would do significant damage to our credibility as well
> > > as to our faith.
> > >
> > > <quote>
> > > In a trice, the harsh reality from which the institution protects its
> > > dumb sheeplike students is - a harsh UNreality. The students are not
> > > meat puppets who foolishly imagine that they have immortal souls and
> > > must therefore be humoured by their silly little campus groups. They
> > > are people who actually do have immortal souls who are being trained
> > > by the institution to accept a culture that lies to them that they are
> >
> > > meat puppets. And the institution essentially brokers the lies in the
> > > interests of the materialist culture - and to its own prestige.
> > > </quote>
> > >
> > > Nice rhetoric, but this is a two-edged sword. What if universities
> > > cater to a worldview which is known to be at odds with fact?
> > >
> > > <quote>
> > > Now do you see the threat posed by an intellectually rigorous inquiry
> > > into intelligent design?</quote>
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as an intellectually rigorous inquiry into
> > > intelligent design, let's not fool ourselves.
> > >
> > > To see how non-scientists like Denyse may be easily fooled, I present
> > > the following claim by her
> > >
> > > <quote>*It has been known since the 1960s that the evidence from
> > > mathematical probability will not sustain Darwinism. Mike Behe's Edge
> > > of Evolution follows up on that, using the evidence from
> > > biochemistry.</quote>
> > >
> > > Surely, Augustine would be concerned with Denyse's statement which
> > > most would recognize as in conflict with science. However, there are
> > > no laws against following scientifically vacuous ideas, yet as
> > > Christians we should be aware of the cost to our own faith as well as
> > > to the larger concept of religion.
> > >
> > > And perhaps Denyse, if she is still reading this group, may explain
> > > her use of Darwinbots?
> > >
> > > <quote>Won't Christian Darwinbots point to that as evidence that Marks
> > > should never have been allowed in anyway? And if they can't get rid of
> > > him, they can at least do their very best to suppress his
> > > research.</quote>
> > >
> > > All these claims of suppression of his 'research' as if ID has done
> > > any relevant research in these areas.
> > >
> > > As I said, there is more to this. Yesterday, a previously unknown
> > > contributor to UcD named Botnik posted a 'letter from Lilley,
> > > president of Baylor'. While the letter had all the earmarkings of a
> > > parody, it was not marked as such until later when many ID proponents
> > > had shared their outrage and other interesting comments on the matter.
> > >
> > > In many ways, this foolish attempt at parody seems to mirror Dembski's
> > > press -release after Baylor had given him the directorship of the new
> > > ID center at Baylor. Claiming that his opponents had met their
> > > 'Waterloo', Dembski managed to fumble his recent success and was
> > > quickly replaced by Baylor.
> > >
> > > It will be interesting to follow the developments with Baylor, the
> > > 'parody' email.
> > >
> > > Wesley Elsberry has a good posting at his blog Austringer
> > > http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2007/09/01/weird-situation-at-baylor-gets-weirder/
> >
> > >
> > > PZ Myer also has a posting
> > >
> > http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/09/baylor_has_a_stalker.php#more
> > >
> > > <quote> Dembski:
> > >
> > > Here's a fun interview with my friend and colleague Robert Marks. I
> > > hope you catch from the interview the ambitiousness of the lab and how
> > > it promises to put people like Christoph Adami and Rob Pennock out of
> > > business (compare www.evolutionaryinformatics.org with
> > > devolab.cse.msu.edu). </quote>
> > >
> > >
> > > Update: Peter Irons reports
> > >
> > > <quote>In reply to Bob O'H, Denyse O'Leary all-but-confirmed to me
> > > that Dembski wrote the hoax letter, after I told her I suspected his
> > > authorship, telling me that "Botnik" was someone "of whose identity I
> > > suspect there is little doubt." Dembski hasn't denied it, although
> > > I've given him the opportunity to do so.
> > >
> > > Posted by: peter irons | September 2, 2007 1:22 PM </quote>
> > >
> > >
> > > More recently, Dembski removed the offending posting, although he
> > > claims the actions were one of a third party who had approached
> > > Dembski with the idea.
> > >
> > > The original thread is available at pandasthumb, enjoy
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
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>

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Received on Mon Sep 3 23:19:37 2007