Howard said:* ID people may have different interpretations of Genesis 1,
but they believe that the Creation was not one event. *
Howard, I'm glad you highlighted this. In my experience, people arguing for
a strong ID position tend to evade it*.* The strong ID position, then, like
the YEC position, is driven by a particular heremeneutical position on Gen.
1, particularly concerning discontinuities in the "kinds" and the "days" of
creation.
Howard said: *These are the discontinuities that those who take Genesis 1
seriously should expect to find. We should not expect to find that nature is
'one seamless whole'*
Do you really mean to suggest that those of us who might hold a "framework"
or "analogical days" view of Gen. 1 aren't taking the text "seriously"?
Either of those views, both of which are held by many evangelicals with a
high view of scripture, are consistent with the view that the Gen. 1 "days"
aren't a literal temporal sequence of creative "jumps" but rather are a sort
of literary device. And that's not to mention "serious" evangelical and
non-evangelical scholars who see the text as mostly allegorical.
Do you also really mean to suggest that our understanding of what creation
actually looks like can't inform our understanding of scripture? Shouldn't
we also expect to find that the sky is a solid vault and that the sun
revolves around the earth, then?
Again, these sound like a YEC-ish responses: "if you question my position
about the science, you're questioning the authority of scripture." I really
don't think that's fair.
On 7/18/07, Taylor, Howard G <H.G.Taylor@hw.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Integrity of Creation or as it is sometimes expressed nature is one
seamless whole.
>
>
> ID people may have different interpretations of Genesis 1, but they
believe that the Creation was not one event. There were a small number of
stages. Among these might have been (1). Matter-Energy, (2). Non-conscious
life (3). Conscious life and (4). Conscious life that is capable of
abstract reasoning.
>
>
>
> This means that the sciences should expect to find discontinuities in
their examination of nature.
>
>
>
> 1. The understanding of matter and energy cannot be reduced to 'nothing'.
>
> 2. The understanding of non-conscious life cannot be reduced to a complex
form of matter and energy. (Biology cannot be wholly reduced to chemistry
and physics).
>
> 3. The understanding of conscious life cannot be wholly reduced to a
complex form of non-conscious life.
>
> 4. The understanding of abstract reasoning cannot be reduced to the
consciousness of animals.
>
>
> These are the discontinuities that those who take Genesis 1 seriously
should expect to find. We should not expect to find that nature is 'one
seamless whole'
>
> Bertrand Russell one wrote:
>
> Academic philosophers, ever since the time of Parmenides, have believed
the world is a unity. The most fundamental of my intellectual beliefs is
that this is rubbish. I think the universe is all spots and jumps, without
continuity, without coherence or orderliness or any of the other properties
that governesses love. (Quoted in the Introduction and Summary of 'My
Philosophical Development' by Bertrand Russell, page 199.)
>
>
>
> Best wishes from Edinburgh,
>
>
>
> Howard Taylor
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> FAITH AND THE MODERN WORLD:
> www.howardtaylor.net
> Howard Taylor,
> Work:
> Chaplain, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh, EH14 4AS
> Tel: 0131 451 4508 Mobile: 0775 969 6811
>
>
> E-mail: H.G.Taylor@hw.ac.uk
>
> Home:
> 51 The Murrays, Edinburgh, EH17 8UD
> Tel: 0131 664 0751
> E-mail: HowardTaylor1944@yahoo.co.uk
>
> Skype: Howard1944
>
> Blog: http://apologetics.blog.co.uk
>
> ________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of David Opderbeck
> Sent: Wed 7/18/2007 17:02
> To: Peter Loose
> Cc: George Murphy; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of Scientific
Naturalism
>
>
>
> Peter -- I understand your concerns here. I think the disconnect centers
on what "science" does. Does "science" supply a complete description of
reality, or is it capable of supplying only limited descriptions of a part
of reality? Is "science" the same thing as "Truth?"
>
> I think theists who accept MN suggest that "science" should not be equated
with "Truth" in the sense of being a complete description of reality. There
are pragmatic, historical reasons why it might be advisable and useful to
cabin "science" in this way. Some of those reasons have to do with the
limitations of the tools of science -- which are, at root, the human senses
and extensions thereof, and particular kinds of human logical and
mathematical constructs, which are not capable of fully understanding or
describing God. Some reasons relate to the collapse of the
Enlightenment's effort to craft an all-encompassing "natural philosphy" and
developments in the philosophy of science since then. Other reasons involve
the utility of the MN limitation -- it has led to progress in understanding
and technology in many areas, whereas appeals to non-natural explanations
have tended to close of potentially useful lines of inquiry. Yet other
reasons involve practical distinctions that must be made concerning things
like government research funding.
>
> But maybe most significantly, from a theological perspective, there are
reasons to expect that God endowed creation with "contingent order and
intelligibility," such that we are capable of studying creation as something
possessing its own integrity. The integrity of creation suggests that
creation ordinarly operates according to the "natural" processes with which
God has endowed it. John 1:1, then, isn't a nail in the coffin of MN at
all. When the divine logos spoke the creation into existence, he gave the
creation the very order that makes MN a useful tool!
>
> Having said all that, I would agree that MN can ossify into a
philosophical presupposition. In our culture, it has become anathema to
suggest that science has limits. It's too easy to assume that there must
actually be a "natural' explanation for everything simply because the
empirical tools of science are only competent to seek and offer natural
explanations. The contemporary scientific establishment can be filled with
hubris. I'm not sure the answer to that problem, though, is to think of the
divine logos as some kind of property of the universe that can be described
through the scientific method. I'd lean towards thinking of the divine
logos as one of the presuppositions that must cabin any claims to Truth made
by science. The divine logos is above, around, and under science, but it
cannot be captured or owned by the scientific method.
>
>
> On 7/18/07, Peter Loose <peterwloose@compuserve.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > George – hi!!
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. Do you really act as if Science shouldn't appeal to God for an
explanation? MN appeals to entirely 'natural processes'. What are they if
they're not matter and energy? You've already ruled out, a priori,
Information or Intelligence or Mind. I note that your definition of MN is 'a
pre-scription'. The case is rigged then?
> >
> > 2. I do know that about Einstein – I don't see how your comment is
relevant. What Einstein so famously shows is that matter and energy are
equivalent, not that they are other than fundamental aspects of a
Materialist view of all that is.
> >
> > 3. Show me then please: why is ON not the logical precursor of MN?
If the Ontology is a Theistic assumption, then how can MN operate and
exclude that which is really there as stated in 'our' Ontology?
> >
> > 4. I find this comment you make George to be quite distressing.
Show me any substantive place in the entirety of Scripture where the
Creation is not a special event, a Singularity? Isn't the weight of
John 1.1just that final nail in the coffin of MN??? I really am
perplexed. God can
raise the Dead but O dear, He can't be permitted to create life just by His
Word??
> >
> > 5. I don't understand this one at all. Could this be a non sequitur?
Would you mind unpacking please? Excuse my ignorance.
> >
> >
> >
> > Blessings
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 12:56 PM
> > To: Peter Loose; asa@calvin.edu
> >
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of
Scientific Naturalism
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of
Scientific Naturalism
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1) MN is not "based around" the assumptions of matter & energy. It's a
prescription that science should not appeal to God as an explanation. The
introduction of intelligence or mind as explanatory elements would not
violate MN in this sense - as long as those are not simply aliases for God
(which they are for ID). Of course whether or not such a procedure is
fruitful is another matter.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2) Matter & energy, as concepts in physics, are not at the most basic
level "two" entities but one - that's the significance of E = mc^2.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3) The claim that Ontological Naturalism is the "logical precursor" to
Methodological Naturalism is false.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4) I was neither "setting aside" the Resurrection nor saying that it is
the only phenomenon (Note my plural - "unique historical event s like the
resurrection") with which science cannot deal. I was recognizing precisely
the possibility of events, commonly referred to as miracles, which cannot
be explained adequately without reference to God. OTOH Scripture gives
us no reason to think that the origin of life is in that category.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 5) In the vast majority of cases God sustains - & acts - by his
powerful Word in cooperation with creatures. That is why science
constrained by MN works - the point of my original post.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: Peter Loose
> >
> >
> > To: asa@calvin.edu
> >
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:12 AM
> >
> >
> > Subject: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of Scientific
Naturalism
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow George – I am amazed! May I as a Brit make a comment?
> >
> >
> >
> > What is MN? It's a set of assumptions based around two poles – Matter
and Energy. Any outcome must be bounded by those assumptions. Now suppose
those assumptions are wrong in any absolute sense? Will that ever be
discovered?
> >
> >
> >
> > Probably not – because MN is almost universally now come to be the only
'correct' way of doing science. And when MN fails, as it has manifestly, in
any question about the origin of a single self-replicating cell or indeed on
the increasingly vast matters shown up by the Encode project, those who
operate by a commitment to MN fall back on another set of commitments. It's
deep in the world-view of arguably virtually all scientists. That assumption
is that MN is linked, to its logical precursor, Ontological Naturalism. So,
if the answer to for example "the origin of life question" is elusive (it
is?) then ON informs our Scientism and, by faith, we understand that the
worlds were framed by MN. So we wait in faith, committed to MN, for the
answer to the question of the origin of the single living cell.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now a third pole of science ought to embrace something akin to
Intelligence or Mind. We know that Information is at the heart of life. No
computer engineer can look at DNA without recognising that the cell is
programmed for life.
> >
> >
> >
> > I've spent my life applying computers to Industrial Process Control
problems. I've lived with the challenges of designing rugged software that
doesn't fall over and cause, in my case, Steel Mills to crash. What I know
is how difficult that challenge is. I know that it costs incalculable hours
to develop software that runs reliably. I know that any 'glitches' or 'bugs'
in the software didn't get better overnight. No, we pored over the code to
work out, intelligently, what was going wrong and how to put it right.
> >
> >
> >
> > Everything we know about Information tells us that it only arises from
pre-existing Intelligence. It is neither matter nor energy. Those who hold
to MN might as well postulate that Windows XP (or any other 'language' )
could arise simply by squirting a long string of 'white noise' into a
bi-level device ( e.g. - a Schmidt trigger) and expecting as output a
string of code that when married with an X86 Instruction set would suddenly
become Windows XP or any other Operating System. The real world simply isn't
like that. There seems to be a complete absence of empirical evidence to say
that the biological world is any different. But because we've assumed MN we
have formed an attachment to it that is so inseparably linked to science,
that anyone who argues science can be done with an additional pole, such as
Information, or Mind, then that person is ostracised - "he's not doing
science".
> >
> >
> >
> > I am amazed too that one can set aside the enormous ramifications of
'The Resurrection' in a single sweep of the hand "But - bracketing off for a
moment claims for unique historical events like the resurrection - we don't
have any reason to believe that there are any such phenomena. " What do you
mean by your phrase "Any reason"? Most of the New Testament challenges that
statement. While the Resurrection is clearly absolutely huge, it is by no
means the only 'Singularity' in either the NT or the OT.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then we come to such themes as spelled out in Hebrews 1:3 (NIV) The Son
is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,
sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided
purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in
heaven.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am engineer, not a scientist or a philosopher – but I am old now and
I've heard enough and seen enough to know than MN is a limit on science and
is the territory of the a priori commitment to Naturalism. What's the
difference between Naturalism and Atheism?
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter Loose
> >
> > Chelmsford
> >
> > UK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 2:18 AM
> > To: George Murphy; David Opderbeck; Ted Davis
> > Cc: PvM; Gregory Arago; asa@calvin.edu; (Matthew) Yew Hock Tan
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of
Scientific Naturalism
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > After a long lapse, another of the typos you all know & love. Below
read "Of course that doesn't mean that what it's able to study exhausts all
reality, or that we may NOT encounter observable phenomena that such science
can't finally explain."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: George Murphy
> >
> >
> > To: David Opderbeck ; Ted Davis
> >
> >
> > Cc: PvM ; Gregory Arago ; asa@calvin.edu ; (Matthew) Yew Hock Tan
> >
> >
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 1:16 PM
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of
Scientific Naturalism
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2 comments -
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1) Those who've been on the list for awhile may remember that Hunter
was on it a couple of years ago & that some of us debated these issues then.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2) All the history, philosophy & theology involved in this discussion
is interesting, but we shouldn't lose track of one crude empirical fact:
Science operating within the constraints of MN works - it has been working
for ~400 years & continues to work very well in explaining known phenomena &
predicting new ones. Of course that doesn't mean that what it's able to
study exhausts all reality, or that we may encounter observable phenomena
that such science can't finally explain. But - bracketting off for a moment
claims for unique historical events like the resurrection - we don't have
any reason to believe that there are any such phenomena. Of course that's
where ID raises it's distinctive objection, but the best it's done so far is
to point to some phenomena that haven't yet been explained fully. There is
simply no good reason for scientists, whatever their religious beliefs, to
abandon MN as a presupposition for doing science: "If it ain't broke, don't
fix it."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: David Opderbeck
> >
> >
> > To: Ted Davis
> >
> >
> > Cc: PvM ; Gregory Arago ; asa@calvin.edu ; (Matthew) Yew Hock Tan
> >
> >
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 11:51 AM
> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Science's Blind Spot: The Unseen Religion of
Scientific Naturalism
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ted said: I also believe it is much more accurate; the term MN itself
> > probably arose with Christian philosophical reflection on the limits of
> > science and the reality of a "supernatural" God, and our definition
reflects
> > this.
> >
> >
> > But what Hunter seems to be saying is that what we now call MN is rooted
in the epistemology and method of Bacon and Locke. For the Enlightenment
empiricists, empirical study of the world is an effort to obtain unified
knowledge about reality-as-it-is. If reality-as-it-is includes the
empirically observable hand-of-God, then that observation properly falls
under the umbrella of "science," or, to use an eighteenth century term,
"natural philosophy." The gist of Hunter's argument -- at least what the
book review seems to reflect -- is that "science" should return to this
broader notion of "natural philosophy." The current restrictions of MN
would reflect an improper, a priori skeptical elision of God from nature, as
well as an improper turn away from "empirical," observational,
inductive Baconian science towards more speculative deductive methods ala
Popper.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > But my first question about this is how to return to Bacon and Locke
after Darwin, Einstein, and Heisenberg -- in other words, do Bacon and Locke
work after Newton's mechanism has been dethroned? And my second question is
how to return to Bacon and Locke after the collapse -- or at least
undermining -- of foundationalist empistemology's naive view of culture,
history and language.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/16/07, Ted Davis < TDavis@messiah.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >>> PvM < pvm.pandas@gmail.com> 7/15/2007 5:01 PM >>>quotes Wikipedia on
> > Methodological naturalism, as follows:
> >
> > <quote>Naturalism does not necessarily claim that phenomena or
> > hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural do not exist or are wrong,
> > but insists that all phenomena and hypotheses can be studied by the
> > same methods and therefore anything considered supernatural is either
> > nonexistent, unknowable, or not inherently different from natural
> > phenomena or hypotheses.</quote>
> >
> > Then, Pim adds the following comment:
> >
> > If all Hunter is interested in is pointing out that there may have
> > been some who had religious motivations to restrict science, such
> > should again not be confused with a methodological approach. Science
> > neither approves nor disapproves of the supernatural, which for all
> > practical purposes is the logical complement of natural.
> >
> > Here are my comments:
> > First, this is not an adequate definition of MN, IMO. In fact,
ironically,
> > it lends support to the incorrect argument from ID advocates, that MN
simply
> > collapses into metaphysical or ontological naturalism. Thus, I'm
surprised
> > that Pim quoted it. Note the language: " all phenomena and hypotheses
can
> > be studied by the
> > same methods and therefore anything considered supernatural is either
> > nonexistent, unknowable, or not inherently different from natural
phenomena
> > or hypotheses." Here is my paraphrase, aimed at making my point: If
> > scientific methods (ie, naturalism) can't detect it, it ain't real, it's
> > only a figment of one's imagination. Am I missing something here? If
so,
> > please be explicit about what I'm missing. I do think this is the tone
and
> > intent of this very poor definition.
> >
> > Second, Pim, the definition you cite from wiki contradicts your own
> > comment, when you wrote: "Science
> > neither approves nor disapproves of the supernatural, which for all
> > practical purposes is the logical complement of natural." If the
> > supernatural is "nonexistent" or "unknowable," (see wiki), then the
latter
> > part of Pim's sentences is entirely emptied of content. If the
> > "supernatural ... is not inherently different from natural phenomena or
> > hypotheses," then it collapses into the natural, and I fail to see how
it
> > becomes "the logical complement of natural." Please have another look
at
> > that wiki definition, Pim, and clarify your own view in light of it.
> >
> > Third, I offer a much better (IMO) definition, taken from the entry on
> > "Scientific naturalism" that I wrote with philosopher Robin Collins for
the
> > Garland encyclopedia of science & religion
> > (
http://www.amazon.com/History-Science-Religion-Western-Tradition/dp/0815316569),
> > a shorter version of which (essays unabridged, however) from JHU press
> > ( http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title_pages/2308.html ). Here is our
> > definition of MN: "the belief that science should explain phenomena only
in
> > terms of entities and properties that fall within the category of the
> > natural, such as by natural laws acting either through known causes or
by
> > chance (methodological naturalism)."
> >
> > Why do I believe this definition is much superior? First, it spells out
> > that MN is a belief; one might even call it a belief about beliefs, in
terms
> > of its implications. Our definition leaves ample ground (as it should)
for
> > one to make reality claims about a God who really is bigger than
"nature,"
> > and who actually interacts with "nature," which is better called "the
> > creation." It simply affirms, properly, that inferences about God go
beyond
> > what science itself can claim. It in no way rules out the legitimacy of
> > such inferences. Second, when read in context (our definition of part
of a
> > much longer definition of four types of naturalism), it is clear to
people
> > that MN does not equate to or collapse into overreaching forms of
> > naturalism. Thus, e.g., we define "scientific naturalism" (our term for
the
> > most wide reaching kind of naturalism) as follows: "the claim that
nature is
> > all that there is and hence that there is no supernatural order above
> > nature, along with the claim that all objects, processes, truths, and
facts
> > about nature fall within the scope of the scientific method." Our
> > definition of MN is designed, properly, to leave this type of
speculation
> > aside entirely. Whereas the wiki definition, IMO, strongly suggests or
> > implies precisely that nature is all there is--at least, all that is
> > genuinely meaningful to discuss, which is the spirit of the logical
> > positivism that still underlies efforts to ridicule belief in God and
keep
> > it out of the academy.
> >
> > The definition Robin and I give, in what is frankly a far more reliable
and
> > academically serious publication that wikipedia, is (I believe and I
hope
> > others agree) a definition that is much more appropriate to consider on
the
> > ASA list. I also believe it is much more accurate; the term MN itself
> > probably arose with Christian philosophical reflection on the limits of
> > science and the reality of a "supernatural" God, and our definition
reflects
> > this.
> >
> > Ted (ASA member, and glad of it)
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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