Re: [asa] How paleontology works

Hi, Jack,

It's interesting you should mention this article, as that was the one where
I got the information about Schweitzer being a Christian. Interestingly it
was sent to me by the "new" YEC person I'm trying to have dialogue with
(whom I can't recommend the ASA to because of the language used by certain
people I won't mention).

He sent me the article to illustrate why he thought the young ages were more
believable than the old ones. I can only think that he didn't read the bit
about Schweitzer being a Christian and what she thought of what Creationists
had done with her research. Needless to say I'll be writing back saying
it's obvious all YEC's are lying toads and how can he as an intelligent
human being believe all this crap? Not. I'm still searching for a way of
putting it more diplomatically than that, and wishing that the ASA list
could be usable to help in the dialogue directly.

Iain

On 9/11/06, Jack Haas <haas.john@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> As a follow-up to Iain's comments on Mary Schweitzer's research read the
> interesting account of her research in the article:
> "Dinosaur Shocker" By Helen Fields in
> <http://www.smithsonianmagazine.com/issues/2006/may/dinosaur.php>
> Jack Haas
>
> Iain Strachan wrote:
> > Actually, I think the example Rich gives, interesting though it is,
> > falls for the same sort of mistake that YEC's also make.
> >
> > The problem is there is no easy way to rule out coincidence - they
> > decided to look there by perfectly rational deduction, and then they
> > got an observation that fitted the prediction. But unless there is a
> > consistent trend of results like this ( e.g. consistently finding more
> > transitional forms were "predicted" compared to looking in random
> > places), then there is no proof that it wasn't coincidence.
> > Unfortunately this kind of find then gets amplified by the popular
> > press, and gets taken as validation of the theory.
> >
> > I think Creationists do much the same thing ... it appears that much
> > of the hype they created over the T. Rex alleged "blood cells" was by
> > taking a headline from a popular news item, and proclaiming it as the
> > truth. They never bothered to check the detailed scientific
> > references, which were much more cautious. A write up of the T. Rex
> > red blood cell fiasco on Talk Origins shows how they systematically
> > exaggerated the significance of the find, based purely on popular
> > press descriptions of it. It was sickening to read how they had
> > twisted Mary Schweitzer's research for their own ends, especially, as
> > I have now read, that Schweitzer is in fact a devout Christian, who
> > has a biblical text on her desk, and who is very upset about the way
> > her work has been messed around with.
> >
> > To return to paleontology - the main point is that one example doesn't
> > prove a theory.
> >
> > Iain
> >
> > On 9/11/06, *James Mahaffy* < Mahaffy@dordt.edu
> > <mailto:Mahaffy@dordt.edu>> wrote:
> >
> > See below.
> > --
> >
> > James Mahaffy ( mahaffy@dordt.edu
> > <mailto:mahaffy@dordt.edu>) Phone: 712 722-6279
> > 498 4th Ave NE
> > Biology Department FAX : 712
> > 722-1198
> > Dordt College, Sioux Center IA 51250-1697
> >
> > >>> On 9/11/2006 at 8:18 AM, in message
> > <a89e52290609110618h6cef0eefx4d4eb65d9f8e3fad@mail.gmail.com
> > <mailto:a89e52290609110618h6cef0eefx4d4eb65d9f8e3fad@mail.gmail.com
> >>,
> > "Rich
> > Blinne"
> > < rich.blinne@gmail.com <mailto:rich.blinne@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > On 9/10/06, Bill Hamilton <williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com
> > <mailto:williamehamiltonjr@yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > You mean you want an HR diagram? That's in all undergrad Astronomy
> > > texts. Actually the paleontologists do that one better than what
> you
> > > are asking. They predict using evolutionary theory where say a
> > > transitional form say a fish that can walk might exist. Here's how
> > > they knew where to look for Tiktaalik according to Nature News:
> > >
> > > "Daeschler and Shubin set off to find this missing link in the
> > > evolutionary chain back in 1999. The pair targeted Ellesmere
> Island
> > > after noticing that it was listed in an undergraduate textbook as
> > > exposed Devonian rock that had not previously been explored for
> > > vertebrate fossils.
> > >
> > > The desolate area was reachable only by plane, and the weather was
> > so
> > > bad that field work could only be done for about two months each
> > > summer. The team first walked around the rocky outcrops looking
> for
> > > fossils of plant life that indicated stream or delta sediments, in
> > > order to target areas that had once hosted shallow waters. 'That
> is
> > > where the action is on the fish-to-tetrapod transition,' says
> > > Daeschler."
> > >
> > > Sure enough they found the fossil there. This is how you make
> > > so-called historical sciences experimental. Similar techniques are
> > > used in astrophysics where colliding galaxies were recently used
> to
> > > determine whether dark matter exists.
> >
> >
> > This gives the wrong impression that most paleontology works by
> > people
> > knowing there should be a transition fossil and then looking in the
> > appropriate age rock and finding it. Mostly that is NOT how new
> > interesting fossils or "transitional" fossils are found. If it
> > were we
> > would have found the transition fossils to the angiosperms
> (flowering
> > plants) and most invertebrate fossils. We know where they appear
> > in the
> > fossil record but most appear without obvious transitions and is
> > not for
> > paleontologists looking for them. Before Keith picks on me,I am not
> > denying transitional fossils. Iit is easier to find transitions
> > in the
> > vertebrate record than invertebrate record. And I do know something
> > about fossil (graduate work in paleobotany) and teach paleontology
> at
> > Dordt.
> >
> > Let me share the other side of how paleontology sometimes
> works. Back
> > in the late 70's I was working on paper on a fossil plant,
> > Microspermopteris. It had been described as lacking leaves. That
> was
> > wrong. It just had long internodes and the leaves weren't seen by
> the
> > original describer of the genus. In any case, my original article
> did
> > not draw any phylogenetic inferences to the status of this plants to
> > other pteridosperms. I did see differences in the genus from
> > different
> > parts of the US (our lab had the biggest collection of coalballs
> > (petrified coal-swamp peat) from the US. However, I was told by the
> > person mentoring my first paper that I had to hypothesize what the
> > phylogenetic relationship. Eventually, I had to confess I
> > philosophically did not believe that everything had to be
> > phylogenetically related. And alas another lab meanwhile
> > published on
> > the anatomy of the genus.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -----------
> > After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
> >
> > - Italian Proverb
> > -----------
>
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