Re: The wee people

Don,
I evidently should have explained that I used "knowledge" in a strict
philosopher's sense. The common definition (inadequate) is "justified
true belief." I have no objection to a looser sense, indeed, am happy to
speak of scientific knowledge while recognizing that it may change,
though truth is one and unchanging. I should add that there is a relevant
difference between the knowledge (loose sense) that may be transmitted
from person to person and the inner witness God grants us.

I say dogmatically that there is no proof of God's existence. Yes, there
are evidences, and there are claimed proofs. But some years back I
pointed out the hole in a claimed proof. ("A Response to Williams'
Theistic Argument," Bulletin of the Evangelical Philosophical Society,
15:37-41 (1992)).The literature contains discussions of the holes in the
standard arguments. In the absence of proof we do not know (strict sense)
that God exists. Therefore the life of the Christian is one of faith, not
knowledge. Note the term "believer" and II Corinthians 5:7. It is
Gnostics who claim to know, to have penetrated to esoteric knowledge of
ultimate reality.
Dave

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 02:36:57 -0800 "Don Winterstein"
<dfwinterstein@msn.com> writes:
Dave Siemens wrote:

"...I take
seriously the statement that those who come to God must _believe_ that he
is, not know. Knowledge of God's being and acts is beyond our finite
capacity...."

Many New Testament statements support the idea that people can know God.
In fact, many of these statements imply that all who accept Christ have
such knowledge. Examples (from NIV): I John 3:24: "...And this is how
we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us." I
John 4:13: "We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has
given us of his Spirit." Acts 19:2: "'Did you receive the Holy Spirit
when you believed?' They answered, 'No, we have not even heard that
there is a Holy Spirit.'" Such biblical statements often imply that the
knowledge is conscious, that a person is conscious of the indwelling
Spirit.

Still, many Christians profess no such conscious knowledge of God. To
reconcile this fact with my own conscious experiences of God and the
biblical statements, I do not assert that such people are not Christian,
but I have come to believe instead that knowledge of God for them is
subliminal.

From experience I know that knowledge of God is highly variable. It is
possible to know God vividly and unmistakably, but this is not the normal
state. Most of the time God is in the background, barely perceptible.
This is especially true when people are in positions where they must deal
with mundane details of life and work.

What I have found is that knowing God vividly at some point can enable a
person to recognize God when he is barely perceptible. On the other
hand, if one has never come to know God vividly, it is understandable
that such a person would be unable to recognize him most or all of the
time. This does not mean that the knowledge does not exist, it just
means that it is not recognized.

It is true that, in my experience, knowing God consciously does not
convey detailed factual information about him--despite John 16:12-15.
However, it decidedly conveys the fact of his existence. If I had never
had conscious knowledge of God so vivid that it remains unmistakable in
my mind to this day, I suspect I would have stopped believing in him long
ago. Because of that personal revelation, I cannot but believe in him.

I realize that this testimony does little for those who've never had
conscious knowledge of God. And of course no one can independently
verify what I claim. Nevertheless, I think it is important to make clear
that, as the NT indicates, it is possible for people to have conscious
knowledge of God.

It is possible for seekers to find.

I'll go a step further, still without offering evidence: It is possible
to know firsthand that spiritual reality is not necessarily a function of
physical reality.

Don
Received on Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:45:33 -0700