Re: I wasn't "discounting" Glenn's story or his questions

Please dont misquote me, or misinterpret me Roger, as you seem to be so
willing to do, I am not a YECer.

But this comment of yours:

"using our human reason (which I believe to be a gift from God)
to come to a tentative conclusion now. The overwhelming evidence of a
careful examination of nature via the inductive-empirical method of
science ..."

if not qualified by an attitude of humility, and recognization of Man's
limitations and fallibility, limitations which extend both to the realm of
understanding science and scripture, is clearly a humanistic/natuaralistic
attitude, not a Christian one. In fact this comment sounds surprising
coming from a scientist in the early 21st century.

Whether or not you agree with Moorad's views completely or not, if you think
that science is going to give you all of the answers, you are a fool. I
didnt think that Moorad was saying that "science had not caught up with the
Bible yet," but that there are limitations to what we can know.

I hope you dont really think that with reason alone, Man can understand all
things, I hope I am misinterpreting you.

But, I also think that Moorad's comment was a reasonable one, and not drivel
(which I agree was too harsh of a term) . Being finite I dont think we
will ever understand everything even once we are sanctified. But how can
you defend your position that finite and sinful Man, can ever be able to
comprehend everything through reason alone?

Jack Syme MD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger G. Olson" <rogero@saintjoe.edu>
To: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: I wasn't "discounting" Glenn's story or his questions

> Bill,
>
> Sorry, I guess I didn't understand your point. It would appear that our
> views on Genesis have some similarity. I was answering Moorad's
> (apparent?) claim about Genesis being true in the "literal" sense and that
> we humans are just a bunch of ignoramuses who can't ascertain truth about
> Creation via observation and must fall back to a particular
> historical-grammatical interpretation of the Bible for ultimate
> verification.
>
> Saying that we will know everthing in Heaven is a tautological hedge
> against using our human reason (which I believe to be a gift from God)
> to come to a tentative conclusion now. The overwhelming evidence of a
> careful examination of nature via the inductive-empirical method of
> science leads to a conclusion of deep time and change in the biosphere
> over time, in particular, of common descent. At this stage in our
> knowledge, if the Earth and Cosmos turn out to be 6007 years old (ok,
> maybe a few thousand more years for the "liberal" YECs), I would have to
> conclusde (tentatively) that the YHWH of Genesis is a bit of trickster at
> best and cruel deceiving demiurge at worst.
>
> In God's Peace,
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>> Who said I took a literalist view of Genesis? I do believe that in some
>> sense Genesis is true. But it is not necessarily strict scientific
>> truth. there are other kinds of truth.
>>
>> --Bill Yates
>>
>> Roger G. Olson wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, "drivel" is pretty strong, and I stand by that term. That's why I
>>> took the effort to post the response. It's so easy for fideists to
>>> ignore
>>> evidence selectively for an ancient Cosmos and evolution with this
>>> childishly simplistic response that "we will find out all about it in
>>> Heaven."
>>>
>>> We're on Earth now, and I believe God is not a deceiver and allows us to
>>> ascertain what we are able to within our present technological state
>>> about
>>> nature. All we are now able to ascertain about nature points to a
>>> billions year old Earth and Cosmos, change in the biosphere over time,
>>> and
>>> no consistent evidence for a global flood.
>>>
>>> Surely, you are not positing a deceiver god? That's would be the
>>> conclusion I would come to from the evidence available at present. It
>>> points consistently to an other than literal reading of Genesis 1-11.
>>> Why
>>> would God want to trick us poor slobs who have taken the time and effort
>>> to learn some science>
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>>>Roger--
>>>>
>>>>"Drivel" is pretty strong. Moorad did not say that we will know all
>>>>about nature in this lifetime, or ever here on Earth. One day we
>>>>believers will be in Heaven. There are going to be a lot of bruised
>>>>foreheads as we hit our hands to our heads as we say, "Oh! So that's how
>>>>you did it, God!"
>>>>
>>>>Blessings,
>>>>
>>>>--Bill Yates
>>>>
>>>>Roger G. Olson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>(quote from Moorad)
>>>>
>>>>>>Experimental sciences are quite definite and the conclusions from
>>>>>>them are unavoidable. However, there are areas of science, e.g.,
>>>>>>historical sciences, where the issues are not as clear cut. **** It
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>my
>>>>>>belief that the day we know all about nature we will find that there
>>>>>>is no contradiction between Scripture and the findings of science.
>>>>>> ****
>>>>>>Of
>>>>>>course, how we can extrapolate from what we know about science to the
>>>>>>nonphysical and how we can extrapolate from the nonphysical to the
>>>>>>physical is not easy and leads to speculative thinking, which I
>>>>>>consider a waste of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do I deny the inerrancy of scripture and take Genesis non literally as
>>>>>>well? Am I like Lewis a conservative with a liberal tinge? You
>>>>>> decide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Moorad
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The day we know all about nature? What are you talking about? This is
>>>>>an
>>>>>incredible hedge. The statement between the asterisks is basically
>>>>>"Science hasn't caught up with the Bible yet." This is an
>>>>> embarassingly
>>>>>fideistic attitude. I thought we were trying to get beyond this kind
>>>>> of
>>>>>drivel on this Listserve?
>>>>>
>>>>>Roger
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>--Bill Yates
>>>>--mailto:billyates@billyates.com
>>>>--http://www.billyates.com
>>>>--CD Reviewer, Webmaster, Roots66.com
>>>>--Editor, WorldVillage.com's Believer's Weekly
>>>>--Theron Services: Web Design, Editing, Writing
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> --Bill Yates
>> --mailto:billyates@billyates.com
>> --http://www.billyates.com
>> --CD Reviewer, Webmaster, Roots66.com
>> --Editor, WorldVillage.com's Believer's Weekly
>> --Theron Services: Web Design, Editing, Writing
>>
>
>
> --
>
Received on Mon Oct 25 07:13:02 2004