Re: Jesus' Wide and Profound Effect Upon Humanity

ED: ...Muslims argue that a single man, Mohammed, was contacted =
MIRACULOUSLY by
God, and his disciples were inspired to take his holy teachings =
seriously.
If there was no such miracle, then how do you explain the devotion of
Muslims, and the fact they grew to become a world religion, even taking
over Northern Africa a former Christian stronghold....=20

Don: Could it perhaps have had something to do with military conquest? =
In the translator's forward of my copy of the "Glorious Koran," =
Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall (a fervent Muslim) says: "The number of =
[military] campaigns which [Mohammed] led in person during the last ten =
years of his life is twenty-seven, in nine of which there was hard =
fighting. The number of expeditions which he planned and sent out under =
other leaders is thirty-eight. He personally controlled every detail of =
organisation...." Muslims have seldom been shy about forcing their =
beliefs on others, through atrocities if convenient--and some of them =
still show that tendency. Having served time myself in the army, I'd =
have an awfully hard time looking up to a military man, one who's been =
intimately involved with all the atrocities common to battlefields, for =
spiritual enlightenment (--the Bible's King David being a possible =
exception). =20

As for the Mormons, I suspect their success has had as much to do with =
their professed attachment to Jesus as anything, along with their =
requirement that all their young men serve as missionaries. I've never =
heard that members of the early Christian church were required to serve =
two years as missionaries. Granted, the Mormon missionary work has had =
an effect; but the effect seems forced compared with the more =
spontaneous dynamic of early Christianity. =20

ED: ...Luke admits he was collecting stories, so we
have later theological views, and a partisan history lesson....=20

Don: After carefully considering the "we" passages in the Acts, I =
believe strongly that Luke accompanied Paul at least some of the time on =
his missionary journeys and hence that his witness is quite early. =
Furthermore, I see no need to read into this literature all the =
assumptions you make about changes over time in the nature of the =
message. Paul seems to have taken a long time to contemplate his =
conversion and message before he set out to spread the word (cf. Gal. =
1:11-18; 2:1), so I think it's particularly unlikely that his message =
would have changed so drastically with time. Many of his explicit =
comments from time to time on his own teaching strongly militate against =
any such variation in the message. =20

The variations you cite in the gospel stories are of course very much =
old hat and have given rise to much debate and speculation, but the =
conclusions you draw are not the only ones that may fit the data. I =
agree that the inconsistencies at the ends of the gospels detract from =
their credibility. On the other hand, the inconsistencies show that no =
one was forcing conformity, as was done with the Qur'an, and thus, I =
suspect, simply witness to the ordinary human inability to do accurate =
reporting from memory. =20

At the same time, If Jesus had not actually risen and shown himself, I =
cannot believe his inner circle would have had the motivation or the =
guts to make the robust and bold witness that, I believe, is at the very =
heart of Christianity. After all, these people, according to the gospel =
stories, were about as common and ordinary as people get, and pretty =
much devoid of personal ambition. Such people--unlike, say, Socrates' =
student, Plato--almost never become bold leaders under ordinary =
circumstances. Jesus' staying dead would have been an ordinary =
circumstance. What would have motivated them if Jesus had not risen? =
They would simply have drifted despondently back to their fishing boats =
or whatever. =20

ED: ...The Dead Sea Scrolls also mention that the
final judgment of the world was predicted to take place within a
generation of the Teacher of Righteousness' teaching or death. Again,
such expectations preceded Christianity.=20

Don: Yeah, lots of changes in emphasis occurred in the old-time =
religion between the period of the kings and the coming of Christ--most =
seeming to come during or after the Babylonian captivity. One of the =
big changes was the emphasis on a glorious afterlife. My interpretation =
is that Jesus recognized the truth in these concepts and promoted them. =
No way was he simply a harmonizer and promoter of extant theological =
beliefs. The power of his message always owed at least as much to his =
works as to his teachings. Without his works his teachings as we find =
them, say, in the gospel of John would have seemed simply peculiar and =
absurd and would have fallen to earth with a thud. =20

ED: ... The New Testament is older than the Old Testament was when the =
New
Testament was first written, and still no new revelations. =20

Don: That's what you think. New revelations don't necessarily come =
with thermonuclear explosions. God is Spirit, and his actions go =
undetected by skeptical eyes. =20

Don

   ----- Original Message -----=20
   From: ed babinski<mailto:ed.babinski@furman.edu>=20
   To: Don Winterstein<mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com>=20
   Cc: asa@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa@lists.calvin.edu> ; Glenn =
Morton<mailto:glennmorton@entouch.net>=20
   Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:12 PM
   Subject: Jesus' Wide and Profound Effect Upon Humanity

   "Don Winterstein" =
<dfwinterstein@msn.com<mailto:dfwinterstein@msn.com>> writes:
>DFW: If Jesus had not risen, would his once-cowering disciples have =
gone
>out boldly to spread the word and set the stage for Christianity to
>dominate the Western world? =20

   ED: Every international religious and political movement starts out
   small, with a few absolutely devoted and brave disciples. The =
earliest
   Ba'hai's were killed in droves, ten or twenty thousand. Today there's =
six
   million of them. The Mormons were driven out of entire states and =
their
   leader lynched, but they number over 11 million today. Even Sun Myung
   Moon spent time in a North Korean prison known for its high rate of =
dead
   prisoners, yet miraculously survived and founded a church made out of
   discarded boxes on a peer in South Korea, that later grew to become =
the
   Unification Church and his financial empire that includes ownership of =
the
   Washingtion Times.

   Muslims argue that a single man, Mohammed, was contacted MIRACULOUSLY =
by
   God, and his disciples were inspired to take his holy teachings =
seriously.
   If there was no such miracle, then how do you explain the devotion of
   Muslims, and the fact they grew to become a world religion, even =
taking
   over Northern Africa a former Christian stronghold. (There are =
900,000
   Sunni Muslims in the world today, the second largest religious group =
in
   the world, -- right beneath Catholics which number a hundred million =
more
   and are the single largest religious group in the world. But then, the
   Catholics did have a five hundred year head start. See adherents.com =

   for the numbers, which also shows that Jehovah's Witnesses outnumber
   Southern Baptists, though the Southern Baptists have been around =
longer.=20
   I guess the Southern Baptists just don't believe as sincerely or work =
as
   hard as the Jehovah's Witnesses at "witnessing.") =20

   Moreover, Biblical scholars have argued that we don't have the =
original
   words of the original apostles, we have what people wrote about them, =
and
   wrote about the early church, Luke admits he was collecting stories, =
so we
   have later theological views, and a partisan history lesson. Also =
the
   belief and expectations in a general resurrection of the dead and =
final
   judgment of the world preceded Christianity. That may have provided =
the
   spark for the story of Jesus' resurrection. Just look at Paul's =
earliest
   letters, the earliest N.T. documents, Thessalonians 1 and 2, and the
   expectations of the world's final judgment in them. Jesus' =
resurrection
   is mentioned extremely briefly, what the very earliest Christians were
   enthusiastic about was the soon coming final judgment and general
   resurrection of the dead. While the earliest teachings of the =
apostles
   might have been merely that Jesus was exalted and glorified in heaven =
by
   God, but later the question of the story of how he explicitly got to
   heaven came up, and so the story arose about Jesus being raised in a
   "spiritual body" in 1st Cor., then the "empty tomb" story arose as =
seen
   in the earliest Gospel, Mark (it was a typical motif in the ancient =
world
   to represent someone going to heaven, by simply having their body =
vanish),
   then later in Luke and John, the body was made "flesh," the raised =
Jesus
   eats, is touched before going to heaven, and people "see" him rising =
up
   there. =20

   Also note that the story grew in other ways as well, from Mark to
   Matthew/Luke and John. For instance in Mark a mere "young man" is at =
the
   empty tomb, and Mark mentions another "young man" who followed Jesus =
at
   his arrest, and had to flee away naked when the guards noticed him and
   tried to grab his clothing. The later threer gospels delete the =
"young
   man" stories entire in exchange for one or two glorious "angels." =
Also
   note the way Luke's "angel" changes the heavenly message delivered at
   Jesus' tomb, and think about why Luke's version of that message =
differs
   from Mark and Matthew which both say that the raised Jesus "went =
before
   you, to Galilee, for there ye shall see him." Luke's angel doesn't
   mention that Jesus has gone before them to Galilee, because he has all =
of
   his risen Jesus appearances take place in Jerusalem. So he alters the
   message at the tomb so that it says nothing about where Jesus has =
"gone
   to" or that they will "see him THERE." Thinks about that change for a
   while and get back to me. =20

   Oh, and the Dead Sea scrolls mention a human judge in heaven appointed =
by
   God to judge the world, on a scroll written before Jesus' day. The
   Melchizadek scroll I believe. The Dead Sea Scrolls also mention that =
the
   final judgment of the world was predicted to take place within a
   generation of the Teacher of Righteousness' teaching or death. Again,
   such expectations preceded Christianity.=20

   ---------------------------------------

>As I've said before, you're not going to get any better objective
>verification for the validity of Christianity than this impact it had =
on
>world history. =20

   ED: I have written on that particular question: =20
   "Jesus' Wide and Profound Effect Upon Humanity"=20
   =
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/experience.html#humani=
ty<http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/experience.html#hum=
anity>

   -----------------------------------------
>
>Yes, there were all kinds of messiness involved, all kinds of heresy,
>conflicts of all kinds--but the overriding effect historically was
>obvious. =20

   ED: It won't be "obvious" until somebody starts lightning =
thermonuclear
   candles to light Jesus' way back to earth, because apparently he's =
lost
   it. The New Testament is older than the Old Testament was when the =
New
   Testament was first written, and still no new revelations. =20

>
>
Received on Sat Oct 23 09:58:55 2004