"Terry M. Gray" <grayt@lamar.colostate.edu> writes:
>Ed,
>I do have to wonder what your interest is on this group.
ED: My original interest was in sharing my Sarfati story, but once I saw
some of the emails coming in from the group I jumped into various
discussions. I happen to know both Howard and Glenn, have known them both
for years. Exchanged snail mail letters with Howard ages ago back in the
mid 1980s when I edited Theistic Evolutionists' Forum and he allowed me to
graciously quote some bits from one of his books way back then. Glenn I
have known from over five ten years ago. And I've known Paul Seely for
nearly as along as I've known Glenn. Great bunch of guys! Though this
list seems to have worn Glenn's temper just a tad thinner after remaining
here debating so many folks over the years. I know because, I've read many
of his past encounters with other Christians on a wide variety of subjects
here on this list.
---------------------
TERRY:
>While we don't require adherence to the ASA statement of faith for
>participation, we do expect there to be general sense of sympathy--this
>is not a list to debate Christianity.
ED: Actually, it appeared to me that was all the list did was "debate
Christianity," each other's views of it, even to the extent of some
members questioning whether others were "Christians," as seen in a recent
email in here (an email that was unrelated to Glenn Morton and Howard Van
Till's go rounds). Speaking of their go rounds, Glenn seems to be
hounding Howard right now as to why he should believe anything in the
Bible if he can't believe it was specially inspired to be the most
miraculously accurate history and science book ever written. While
Howard comes back and says he believes in Christianity, but also does not
trust that the Bible is infallible nor inerrant in matters of science nor
history, but a "human book." Interesting. Howard also says he's now into
process theology. That's about as close as you can come to my own views
and still call yourself a Christian, so there's an obvious spectrum of
beliefs out there. I think I've also responded fairly kindly and
intelligently, asking rational questions, and I have no personal beliefs I
am pumping other than the obvious one as to why anyone believes as they do
and does not fully admit that their beliefs are simply that, "beliefs,"
not proofs.
-----------------
TERRY:
>You can find that statement at the ASA web site (http://www.asa3.org).
>If your plan is to promote a viewpoint that is in general antithetical to
>traditional Christian orthodoxy, then we'd ask you to refrain.
ED: I have no plan in promoting antipathy, only rational inqury.
------------------------
TERRY:
>Are you familiar with the ASA and the general sentiments reflected there?
>If not, I would suggest that you spend some time at our web site and in
>the journal most of which is on-line.
ED: Over two decades ago, as a born again Christian I subscribed to
Perspectives. And I have read many online pieces over the years at the
ASA site as well.
-------------------------
>
TERRY:
>And please don't use the list to carry on private conversations with
>Dennis--I'm sorry that you can't get through his spam filter, but please
>don't continue to use the list to carry out the dialog after I've asked
>you to stop.
ED: No problem, I'll soon be leaving the list, I'm not fishing for souls.
Though I've already had more than enough of the two Divine
numerologists, and that political paroniac fellow warning of "the System,"
and Sheila's pro-life mission that Jesus has personally set her on, and
"Christians" questioning whether other people on the list are
"Christians." I will always however, check out Van Till's latest articles
in Zygon or in his books, or Glenn's latest articles at his website on
evolution, or countering flood geology. They are both marvelous
intelligent deeply-informed human beings whom I feel truly akin with.
Howard seems to be moving more in the direction that I once trod. Glenn
seems to feel secure with his Mediterannean interpretatino of Noah's Flood
which strikes me as odd, but it makes him feel the Bible is still
infallible and inerrant historically. So if comforts him. Yet it must be
lonely not getting very many of his Christian brethren to agree with him.
The upside of his odd hypothesis is that is also imbues him with
tremendous mental energy that he devotes to disproving "Flood geology,"
his "competiton" on the right (he also seeks to question his competition
on the left, the "local Flood" scenario, since it makes the Biblical
account so inconsequential in reality, a mere local flood being described
in such grandiose terms in the Bible). Yet in the end, I doubt Glenn is
ever going to find any solid evidence that modern mankind and boat
building civilization existed as far back as the time when geologists date
the flooding of the Mediterranean basin.
One last thought to leave you with:
CHRISTIANITY RUNS THE GAMUT …
From silent Trappist monks and quiet Quakers -- to hell raisers and
serpent-handlers;
From those who “hear the Lord” telling them to run for president, seek
diamonds and gold (via liaisons with bloody African dictators), or sell
“Lake of Galilee” beauty products -- to those who have visions of Mary,
the saints, or experience bleeding stigmata;
From those who believe the communion bread and wine remain just that -- to
those who believe the bread and wine are miraculously transformed into
“invisible” flesh and blood (and can vouch for it with miraculous tales of
communion wafers turning into human flesh and wine curdling into blood
cells during Mass);
From those who argue that they are predestined to argue in favor of
predestination -- to those who argue for free will of their own free will;
From those who believe everyone may (or will) eventually be saved -- to
those who believe nearly everyone (except themselves and their church)
will be damned;
From Christian monks and priests who have gained insights into their own
faith after dialoging with Buddhist monks and Hindu priests -- to
Christians who view Eastern religious ideas and practices as “Satanic;”
From castrati (boys in Catholic choirs who underwent castration to retain
their high voices) -- to Protestant hymns and Gospel quartets -- all the
way to “Christian rap;”
From Christians who reject any behavior that even mimics “what homosexuals
do” (including a rejection of fellatio and cunnilingus between a husband
and wife) -- to Christians who accept committed, loving, homosexual
relationships (including gay evangelical Church groups like the nationwide
Metropolitan Baptist Church);
From Catholic nuns and Amish women who dress to cover their bodies -- to
Christian nudists, and even born-again strippers;
From those who believe that a husband and wife can have sex for pleasure
-- to those who believe that sex should be primarily for procreation -- to
those who believe celibacy is superior to marriage (i.e., Catholic
priests, monks, nuns, and some Protestant groups like the Shakers) -- all
the way to those who cut off their genitals for the kingdom of God (the
Skoptze, a Russian Christian sect);
From those who believe sending out missionaries to persuade others to
become Christians is essential -- to the Anti-Mission Baptists who believe
that sending out missionaries and trying to persuade others constitutes a
lack of faith and the sin of pride, and that the founding of
“extra-congregational missionary organizations” is not Biblical;
From those who believe that the King James Bible is the only inspired
translation -- to those who believe that no translation is totally
inspired, only the original “autographs” were perfect -- to those who
believe that “perfection” only lay in the “spirit” that inspired the
writing of the Bible’s books, not in the “letter” of the books themselves;
From those who believe Easter should be celebrated on one date (Roman
Catholics) -- to those who believe Easter should be celebrated on another
date (Eastern Orthodox). And, from those who believe that the Holy Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son (Roman Catholics) -- to those who
believe it proceeds from the Father alone (Eastern Orthodox view as taught
by the early Church Fathers). Those disagreements, as well as others,
sparked the greatest schism of church history (the Schism of 1054) when
the uncompromising patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius, and
the envoys of the uncompromising Pope Leo IX, excommunicated each other;
From those who worship God on Sunday -- to those who worship God on
Saturday (Saturday being the Hebrew “sabbath” that God said to “keep holy”
according to one of the Ten Commandments) -- all the way to those who
believe their daily walk with God and love of their fellow man is more
important than church attendance;
From those who stress “God’s commands” -- to those who stress “God’s
love;”
From those who believe that you need only accept Jesus as your “personal
savior” to be saved -- to those who believe you must accept Jesus as both
savior and “Lord” of your life in order to be saved. (Two major
Evangelical Christian seminaries debated this question in the 1970s, and
still disagree);
From those who teach that being “baptized with water as an adult believer”
is an essential sign of salvation -- to those who deny it is;
From those who believe that unbaptized infants who die go straight to hell
(or at least risk hellfire) -- to those who deny the (once popular) church
doctrine known as “infant damnation.”
From those who teach that “baptism in the Holy Spirit” along with
“speaking in tongues” are important signs of salvation -- to those who
deny they are (some of whom see mental and Satanic delusions in modern day
“Spirit baptism” and “tongue-speaking”);
From those who believe that avoiding alcohol, smoking, gambling, dancing,
contemporary Christian music, movies, television, long hair (on men),
etc., are all important signs of being saved -- to those who believe you
need only trust in Jesus as your personal savior to be saved;
From pro-slavery Christians (there are some today who still remind us that
the Bible never said slavery was a “sin”) -- to anti-slavery Christians;
From Christians who defend the Biblical idea of having a king (and who
oppose democracy as “the meanest and worst of all forms of government” to
quote John Winthrop, first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, with
whom some Popes agreed, as well as some of today’s Protestant
Reconstructionist Christians) -- to Christians who oppose kingships and
support democracies;
From “social Gospel” Christians -- to “uncompromised Gospel” Christians;
From Christians who do not believe in sticking their noses in politics --
to coup d’etat Christians;
From “stop the bomb” Christians -- to “drop the bomb” Christians…
All in all, Christianity gives Hinduism with its infinite variety of sects
and practices a run for its money.
- E.T.B.
____________________________
Live long enough and you’ll encounter a lot of folks who say you are not
really a Christian for a host of reasons. I’ve found the
“no-true-Christian-would-or-wouldn’t-do-or-believe-XYZ” game one of the
more popular among... well... Christians.
- Jonathan (jge642000@yahoo.com ) at the yahoo group ExitFundyism
____________________________
In my journeys in Christianity both in America and abroad I’ve run across
a myriad of believers, a mosaic of Christianity:
I remember a converted Christian who used to be a “Satanist ,” saying,
“What’s the big deal about smoking marijuana?”
A Pentecostal pastor in Holland sat crying at a street side cafe worried
that one of his woman parishioners was going to hell since she had stopped
coming to church and was now wearing make-up. And as he cried, his tears
rolled off his cheeks into his beer. (Many Pentecostal Christians in the
U.S. ascribe to an ethic of absolute abstinence from alcohol.)
I’ve known Christians who won’t own a TV. Others who won’t allow playing
cards into their house. And others who drink alcohol liberally and have
every material possession imaginable. Others who attempt to memorize the
Bible to such an extent it blocks most of their own original thoughts
about anything. Others who are social activists who take up causes like
opposing abortion or picketing a Marilyn Manson concert. Others who are
simple and humble and feed the poor and house the homeless. Others who are
missionaries in third world countries suffering hardship for the “cause of
Christ.” There was a sub group, however, in my institute who were King
James Only -- they believed the KJV was the only true inspired Bible for
today and that all other versions were corrupted. As a group, they were
radically enthusiastic and were proud to be KJV ONLY, and often fueled
arguments over alternate translations. Something like the Living Bible,
which is a paraphrase, was “the Devil’s work.”
- Karl Arendale <mauikarl@yahoo.com> at the Yahoo Group, ExitFundyism
___________________________
THE WORLD’S NEED
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind,
Is all the sad world needs.
- Ella Wheeler Wilcox (1850-1919)
____________________________
All the world’s religions are just the same guilt with different holidays.
“God I feel guilty …”
“Let’s eat!”
- Cathy Ladman
____________________________
WHAT IF SERPENT-HANDLING CHRISTIANS ARE THE “TRUE” ONES AND ALL THE REST
ARE “FALSE?”
“THEY SHALL TAKE UP SERPENTS”
And he [Jesus] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be
saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall
follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they
shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they
drink any deadly thing [poison], it shall not hurt them; they shall lay
hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had
spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right
hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord
working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
- Mark 16: 15-20 (KJV)
[Jesus’ words above are not found in the earliest known manuscripts of the
Gospel of Mark, so scholars have doubts as to their authenticity. --
E.T.B.]
____________________________
EXCERPTS FROM THE SERPENT-HANDLERS: THREE FAMILIES AND THEIR FAITH
[In His Own Words, Joe Robert Elkins] “Lot of people think all we do is
handle serpents. We pray for the sick. They’s some sick people that’s
healed here. We drink the strychnine [poison]. We don’t deny none of the
five Signs. We do our best to put all five in action, because He said
“these” Signs. We don’t just pick out praying for the sick or speaking in
tongues, but all five Signs is going to be made manifest in God’s church.
You are either a believer or an unbeliever, and the unbeliever is going to
hell. I believe they are going to burn…
The Bible says to pray without ceasing. See, you go with a prayer in your
mind all the time, lest you enter in the temptations. Prayer is what keeps
the temptation away. When you are approached by the devil, you pray. God
moves that thing. He said to resist the devil, and he would flee from you…
God talks to people, if they would just slow down and listen. God talks. I
hear Him. He speaks to you through the heart. It is a small, still voice.
It is real quiet. It speaks within you. You hear it… But it ain’t every
spirit that talks to you that is God… People think we are crazy, but it is
a wise man who fears the Lord and keeps His Commandments.”
[Introduction to the book, The serpent handlers practice their religion
daily in though, word, and deed. When they fail, they suffer, pray, and
try harder the next day. Their religion demands a price too high for most
of us to pay. Imagine having enough faith to pick up a deadly reptile to
confirm God’s Word, knowing that a bite could be crippling or even fatal.
What about the miracles? How can they be explained? We have seen people
hold flame in their hands and dance on fire without being burned. We have
witnessed believers drinking strychnine with no ill effects and handling
poisonous snakes without being bitten. Other miracles are related in this
book -- healings, casting out devils, baptism by an unseen spirit. Even
these stories seem plausible because we believe in the veracity of the
people who witnessed such events firsthand. …
[In Her Own Words, Cynthia Church] “This religion is not David
Copperfield. It’s not smoke and mirrors and magic. … It makes me angry
when people think serpent handlers are ignorant rednecks from Appalachia.
The way people talk here is cultural. Just because some of them are
uneducated doesn’t mean they are ignorant, but that is the way they are
portrayed by most of the press… Mamaw had the gift of fire. She would pour
kerosene on a little white handkerchief -- you know, the kind ladies used
to carry -- and she would set it on fire and burn it in her hand. The
hankie would burn with fire and smoke, and Mamaw held that fire in her
hand for about fifteen minutes while she danced [in the spirit]. Finally,
she closed her other hand down over it and put the fire out, and her hand
was not even burned, and the handkerchief was not even burned or scorched.”
[In Her Own Words, Linda Turner Coots] “They were handling serpents. My
brother-in-law was handling fire. And Joyce leaps up shouting, speaking in
tongues, and Greg’s dad, he held up his hand and wanted everybody to
listen. And he said, ‘There’s something that just don’t sound right.’
Joyce was speaking in tongues, but it wasn’t God. And when he pointed a
finger at her, she just fell on the floor. And then he begin to pray for
her, and that devil was talking, and it was saying that Jesus was the
devil. And he cast the devil off her. Joyce repented of her sins, but
somewhere, that devil took over, and she didn’t know how to resist him. …
Hayden, Greg’s dad, prayed for him one night at my mom’s and cast the
devil out of him. He told the devil to go into the dog that was outside.
And when he done that, the dog howled, made the awfulest, pitiful sound.
It went mad a few days after that, and my uncle had to kill it. He had to
destroy the dog… Yeah, I been to a lot of baptizings. I’ve seen the Lord
baptize Greg’s dad one Sunday: They was about fifteen people being
baptized that Sunday, and he baptized every one of ‘em, and then he was
just standing in the water after everybody else walked out, and it was
just like something just laid him down in the water and brought him back
up. It was beautiful. He never said anything [about that experience]. We
watched it. It was amazing… I just know that the Word of God is the truth.
They say that speaking in tongues is evidence of the Holy Ghost, but I
believe the real gift of God is eternal life. I wish everybody could see
heaven, but they can’t. It’s not for everybody. It’s only for a chosen
few. Everybody’s not going to see Him. I have friends who say they’re
Christians, but the way I feel about it, they don’t believe in the full
Gospel, and they’re not gonna make it. They’re not gonna go where Jesus
is… I just want to make it [to heaven]. Love. That’s the most important
thing, to have that love.”
[In His Own Words, Charles Church] “Miracles are performed every day in
the church. Ceil’s mother, Barbara, had the gift of fire. She had a great
anointing to handle it. She used to dip her hands into a coal stove and
carry out hot coals with her hands, and she was never burned. Ceil has
that gift too. She says the fire feels cool. Barbara would actually pour
kerosene on the floor and set it on fire and dance barefooted in the fire
and never be burned. Once, I saw her hold out a sinner man’s tie and put
that torch under it, keep it there for five minutes, and it didn’t ever
burn… And when Brother Raford Dunn was bitten in Brother Carl Porter’s
church, we took him downstairs, and he was laying on a bed. Lydia was
sitting next to him and praying for him, and she said she could actually
feel his heart beating. And then she felt it quit beating. We prayed for
him down there, and he came back to life.”
[In His Own Words, Dewey Chafin, born 1933] “The first time I ever
handled a serpent, the anointing felt just like it does now. It starts in
my stomach, the feeling does. It works different in different people, but
I get a little feeling right here [in the pit of my stomach], and it just
gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and from there on up through my chest
and my shoulders. It is a good feeling, a warm feeling. You can feel it…
Over the years I have been bitten 133 times… Some people don’t understand
our religion, but it determines everything I do in life. I don’t drink
coffee. I don’t chew gum. I don’t smoke cigarettes, argue, fight, cuss. If
you start an argument with me, just start, and I’ll be out of your way in
less than a minute. Cussing is definitely a no-no. People take cussing
being just one thing, like using God’s name in vain. But cussing is a lot
more than that. There are a lot of ways you can cuss without using God’s
name in vain.”
The rules of the church hang above the pulpit, their supporting Bible
verses listed in parentheses. They read, “Women are not allowed to wear
short sleeves, jewelry and makeup (I C 3; I Tim. 2:9); No gossiping (James
1:26); No tale-bearing (Prov. 18:8); No lying (Col. 3:9, Rev. 21:8); no
backbiting (Rom. 1:30); No bad language (Col. 3:8); No tobacco users (II
Cor. 7:1, I Cor. 3:17). Men are not allowed to have long hair, mustaches
or beards (I Cor. 11:14); Men are not allowed to wear short sleeves; Women
not allowed to cut hair (I Cor. 11:15); and wear dresses above the knees
(Tim. 2:9).” At the bottom of the sign, in parentheses, it says, “Members
only,” meaning that visitors are excluded from adhering to these mandates…
Since his evangelist brother, Punkin, died from snakebite in 1998, Mark
Brown is the lone surviving child of one of the best known
serpent-handling families in the Southeast. Now Mark is more wary, but not
afraid… He believes that he has a personal mandate from God, told through
a prophecy related to him by family friend Cameron Short. “The Lord told
me that my hands would do the work of the Signs.”
- Fred Brown and Jeanne McDonald, The Serpent Handlers: Three Families and
Their Faith (Winston-Salem, North Carolina: John E. Blair Publisher, 2000)
____________________________
Read Luke 10:19, “Behold I give unto you power to tread on serpents and
scorpions… and nothing shall… hurt you.” Funny, they don’t seem too keen
on treading on scorpions.
- David Windhorst, “God May Kill You For Reading This…And I’m A Little
Nervous Myself”
____________________________
After I wrote news accounts of the serpent-handling churches, sociologists
visited and studied the congregations. One administered a psychological
test to the Scrabble Creek flock, and gave the same test to a nearby
Methodist congregation as a control group. The serpent-handlers came out
mentally healthier.
- James A. Haught, “Adventures in the Bible Belt” (1997), adapted from a
Gazette column, Dec. 7, 1993.
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Received on Tue, 12 Oct 2004 00:33:25 -0400
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