RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

Good point, Roger. But death is clearly described as "the enemy," so I
would assume that God's definition of a "perfect creation" would not include
death. Of course, I concede that nowhere does He claim His creation to be
perfect. In fact, Gordon Brown made the excellent point that "the Book of
Revelation describes an existence in which there is no night." The
creation, from the very beginning, experienced darkness and night. David
Campbell also made a compelling argument in that "the commands to work the
garden, to fill the earth, and to subdue it indicate that there were
opportunities for improvement." So I can understand and appreciate the
rationale that the original creation was not necessarily perfect. I will
have to contemplate this further.

In Christ,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger G. Olson [mailto:rogero@saintjoe.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:51 PM
To: Mike Tharp
Cc: 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
Subject: RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

Mike,

What's your definition of "perfection"? After you answer that, please
answer what you think God's definition of "perfection" is.

In God's Peace,

Roger

> Hello Gordon,
>
> I don't believe that Genesis 2:5 is referring to desert areas in which
> plants could not survive. Verse 6 continues by saying, "But there went up
> a
> mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground."
>
> I concede, however, that it could certainly be possible that "conditions
> were very different outside the Garden than they were in it both before
> and
> after the Fall" and that "thorns and thistles could have been present
> outside the Garden before the Fall". However, call me stubborn, but I
> would
> still disagree that death and suffering occurred before the Fall, even
> outside the Garden of Eden.
>
> Your comment regarding "very good, not perfect" got me to thinking. (I
> know; scary concept!) Wouldn't God, in His perfection, have created
> perfection originally? In other words, wouldn't the original creation
> have
> been perfect until God cursed it because of man's disobedience?
>
> In Christ,
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gordon brown [mailto:gbrown@euclid.Colorado.EDU]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 12:00 PM
> To: Mike Tharp
> Cc: 'AmericanScientificAffiliation'
> Subject: Re: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?
>
>
>
> Before the creation of man it is said that the creation was good rather
> than very good. After the creation of man it is said to be very good, not
> perfect. (The law of the Lord is perfect.) What God has created is still
> said to be good even now (I Tim. 4:4). Prophecies in Revelation and
> elsewhere indicate that something better is possible.
>
> We note that the good creation before the Fall contained desert (Gen.
> 2:5), due to conditions in which plants could not survive. Adam was told
> that he would surely die the day he ate from the forbidden tree. What
> would that have meant to him if he had never seen a dead animal? What was
> the significance of the tree of life? See Gen. 3:22. Indications are that
> conditions were very different outside the Garden than they were in it
> both before and after the Fall. Thorns and thistles could have been
> present outside the Garden before the Fall.
>
> Gordon Brown
> Department of Mathematics
> University of Colorado
> Boulder, Colorado 80309-0395
>
>
>
>

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