RE: Gay Marriage/Homosexuality

Yes, Love your love. I love my mother, but I do not have sex with her. I
love my children, but I do not have sex with them. As for Peter, who are we
to say what God has made clean? As for birth, some people are born with
mental defects which make them violent. Some become killers. Do we allow
them to roam free in our society? Why not? They are born that way. We
don't because they are a threat to society. While I do not believe being
gay is an immediate threat to mankind, it most certainly does not help. As
for attending church, they should be just as welcome as anyone. Perhaps if
churches and people in general would not make them outcasts of religion, we
may find that God will direct them towards a new life, without the sin they
bear. We all go to church for God's guidance. Denying gays this right is
an even greater sin.

Don Perrett

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Cameron, Leslie
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 09:37
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: Gay Marriage/Homosexuality

I feel we (humans, I mean) need to be very careful when "enforcing" for
others what we perceive as the law of God. We tend to default to legalism,
and Jesus warned us about that.

When asked, Jesus summarized the entire law by saying (1) love God and (2)
love your neighbor. It was love He wanted from us, first for God and then
for each other. From this I take it that if it is not about love, it is
likely not about God.

I also remember Peter's vision (Acts 10 and 11) -- the sheet which contained
all kinds of animals defined as unclean by the law. In that vision, a voice
told Peter to kill and eat. Peter objects, saying he has never violated
the law in that way -- as a God-fearing Jew, he seems truly appalled by this
idea. The voice (in the vision) says "What God has made clean, you must not
call profane."

People have a wide variety of views on being gay or lesbian and what God
thinks about that. I have heard many say they "hate the sin but love the
sinner." I don't think anything resembling love comes across in that
message.

The evidence tells us that gay and lesbian people are as "born homosexual"
as straight people are "born heterosexual." As in the past, when the church
has needed to wrestle with Bible verses that seemed to support the slavery
of human beings, and verses that have placed little value on women, I think
the wrestling we must do today is about this issue.

It is very distressing that God-fearing gay and lesbian people so often have
no place to go, because they are not welcome in our churches. Or maybe they
can come, as long as they pretend, or lie about who they know themselves to
be. Based on what Jesus has told us about the Father, this does not seem as
though it would be ok with Him.

Leslie Cameron

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Robert Schneider
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 4:52 AM
To: Mike Tharp; 'John W Burgeson'
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: Gay Marriage/Homosexuality

This is a subject that you will learn, Mike, I have done some thinking and
writing about. One of my pieces is posted on Burgy's web pages on the
subject of homosexuality: "Sodom and Gomorrah: What is this Story Really
About." One of the best pieces I have read recently deals with the
interpretation of biblical passages dealing with same-sex relations in the
light of the consecration of Bishop Gene Robinson in the Episcopal Church,
and all of the turmoil that the approval of this act has created in the my
Church over the past several months.

The title of this address is "The Biblical Case in Favor of Gene Robinson's
Election, Confirmation and Consecration," by the Rev. Gray Temple at Holy
Innocents Church, Atlanta, GA, 3/11/03. The URL for this address is
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/dojustice/j164.html, and requires Acrobat
Reader. It's a long piece but well worth the reading. Fr. Temple's
dissection of biblical passages used by opponents against recognizing
faithful same-sex relations in their historical contexts, and his larger
reflections on biblical interpretation and the invocation of Tradition are
well worth the reflection.

Bob Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Tharp" <mtharp@exammaster.com>
To: "'John W Burgeson'" <jwburgeson@juno.com>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 3:00 PM
Subject: Gay Marriage/Homosexuality

> Hello Burgy,
>
> Thank you for the reply. I will peruse the information available on your
> website (probably during the weekend) before I reply in any detail. I
> suspect, however, that my conclusions will differ from yours and that we
> will disagree on this issue. I do very much enjoy your "Today's quips",
> though. :-)
>
> In Christ,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John W Burgeson [mailto:jwburgeson@juno.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 4:43 PM
> To: mtharp@exammaster.com
> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: Shapes of a Wedge
>
> >>How can any Christian advocate gay marriage when the Bible (both old
> and new testament) so clearly speaks out against it? I understand that
> you are not personally advocating that position, but you don't seem to
> see such a position as contradictory to the Word of God. Please explain.
> >>
>
> Lots of material on my website, page 2, section 10, on all sides of the
> issue. Some people here get bent out of shape when I mention this stuff,
> so I will not go over already plowed ground.
>
> The issue (#1) of whether ALL same-gender intimacy is sin is one issue.
> The issue (#2) of Gay marriage is another issue. I have a position
> statement on the first issue on my website, written after a several years
> study in 2001; it is still my position.
>
> I have not (yet) taken a position on #2, Gay Marriage, although I think
> the arguments for permitting it are strong ones -- yes, "conservative"
> strong ones. There is at least one argument against it which still gives
> me pause; it is a variation of the so-called "slippery slope" logic.
> Briefly stated, if I can approve Gay Marriage, on what grounds can I
> still oppose polygamy? I have not (yet) worked through this.
>
> In any event, the Bible does not speak at all to either issue, except by
> strained interpretations. The material on my site will explain why I do
> not see scripture as speaking "clearly" on either issue. There are quite
> a number of Christian scholars, clerics and lay people who argue this
> point quite better than I can. Is Paul, in Romans 1, speaking of ALL
> same-gender intimacy, or only of the kind he clearly knew about, acts
> which took place in a pagan temple between men and children?
>
> One of the neatest example of this is a debate between Tony Compolo and
> his wife, who hold differing views on issue #1. A link to this debate is
> on my website.
>
> Scholars Wink and Mauser have written position papers on issue #1, each
> on a different side. Worth reading them both; links on my site.
>
> The issues are not easy. The temptation to just "believe what one has
> always believed" is great. I started there; I know.
>
> Best
>
> Burgy
>
> Today's quip: They told me I was gullible -- and I believed them.
>
> www.burgy.50megs.com
>
>
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Received on Wed Jun 9 15:34:33 2004