From: Alexanian, Moorad (alexanian@uncw.edu)
Date: Sat Sep 20 2003 - 11:31:45 EDT
One ought not to confuse human reasoning with “science.” Human reasoning underlies all that we think and attempt to figure out, be it of scientific (physical) or nonphysical in nature. Water is used to water vines that in turn give grapes and lead to wine. Jesus short-circuited that process and went directly from water to wine. Is it miraculous? Yes. Does science has anything to say about this past event. No. Does it mean it did not happen? No since that is a historical question not a scientific one.
The reason that I do not like to use the term anomaly is that such a term is commonly used in science to describe unpredicted scientific events. E.g., the anomalous Zeeman Effect, etc. Science cannot treat what others consider miraculous as anomalies because such events are outside the subject matter of science, which is data collected, in principle, by purely physical devices.
Moorad
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Petermann [mailto:steve@spetermann.org]
Sent: Sat 9/20/2003 11:13 AM
To: Alexanian, Moorad; allenroy; Dr. Blake Nelson
Cc: asa@lists.calvin.edu
Subject: Re: Fragility and tendentiousness
Moorad wrote:
> Surely, there are historical events that are beyond science and can be
classified as miraculous. It seems to me that those who deny the existence
of miracles are expressing personal assumptions on the par with those who
believe in the past occurrence of miracles. Either group cannot basis their
assumptions on science, one way or another.
>
Yes but those personal assumptions spring from one's take on what reasonably
describes the way reality unfolds. Science informs this sense. Science
hasn't experienced the turning of water into wine. What it does see,
however, are anomalies. Science may view those anomalies as just an
incompleteness of its theory, or if compelling by reason it may extrapolate
to another reality or a mechanism that is beyond the reach of science.
Steve Petermann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: "Steve Petermann" <steve@spetermann.org>; "allenroy"
<allenroy@peoplepc.com>; "Dr. Blake Nelson" <bnelson301@yahoo.com>
Cc: <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Fragility and tendentiousness
> I believe God acts through natural phenomena, mainly, via unique events.
[Although, of course, the sustaining, instant by instant, of all of creation
by God is certainly miraculous.] The latter is a necessary but not by any
means sufficient condition.
>
>
>
> C.S. Lewis discusses miracles and water being turned into wine as
shortcutting the natural process that man uses to make wine to the
Incarnation, the apex of all miracles, which is truly beyond human
comprehension. Where along the line of the miraculous one has a change in
kind of this type, one does not know.
>
>
>
> Surely, there are historical events that are beyond science and can be
classified as miraculous. It seems to me that those who deny the existence
of miracles are expressing personal assumptions on the par with those who
believe in the past occurrence of miracles. Either group cannot basis their
assumptions on science, one way or another.
>
>
>
> Moorad
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Petermann [mailto:steve@spetermann.org]
> Sent: Sat 9/20/2003 10:35 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad; allenroy; Dr. Blake Nelson
> Cc: asa@lists.calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: Fragility and tendentiousness
>
>
>
> Moorad wrote:
> > What is wrong with the word “nonphysical” to describe that aspect of
> reality that is “truly beyond the reaches of science no matter how it
> [science] is defined?” [M. Alexanian, PSCF 54, 287 (2002) and T. Trenn,
PSCF
> 55, 137 (2003)].
> >
>
> If you are talking about God that might suffice. However, if your talking
> about these "anomalous" events as non-physical that contradicts the fact
> that science detects them.
>
> Steve Petermann
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> To: "Steve Petermann" <steve@spetermann.org>; "allenroy"
> <allenroy@peoplepc.com>; "Dr. Blake Nelson" <bnelson301@yahoo.com>
> Cc: <asa@lists.calvin.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 9:31 AM
> Subject: RE: Fragility and tendentiousness
>
>
> > What is wrong with the word “nonphysical” to describe that aspect of
> reality that is “truly beyond the reaches of science no matter how it
> [science] is defined?” [M. Alexanian, PSCF 54, 287 (2002) and T. Trenn,
PSCF
> 55, 137 (2003)].
> >
> >
> >
> > Moorad
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Steve Petermann
> > Sent: Sat 9/20/2003 9:06 AM
> > To: allenroy; Dr. Blake Nelson
> > Cc: asa@lists.calvin.edu
> > Subject: Re: Fragility and tendentiousness
> >
> >
> >
> > Allen wrote:
> > > 1. Do we know everything there is to know about how the natural world
> > > works? Some say that the more we know, the more questions we have.
> > >
> > > 2. Since we don't know every thing there is to know about the
workings
> > > of nature, then we cannot determine for sure if an event is "natural"
or
> > > "supernatural"--i.e. a miracle. We cannot know but what may seem to
be
> > > supernatural in our limited understanding of nature, may actually be
> > > natural in a complete understanding.
> > >
> > > 3. If it is proposed that God invented, designed and made the natural
> > > existence, then, with our limited knowledge, we cannot say that God
> > > functions naturally or supernaturally with the natural.
> > >
> > > 4. Therefore, isn't the entire argument of natural vs. supernatural
> > > moot?
> >
> >
> > I agree with your argument. See prior post:
> > http://www.calvin.edu/archive/asa/200309/0365.html
> >
> > In fact I think it might be better to use another word instead of
> > supernaturalism like, "anomalism" when referring to God's activity in
> events
> > that are somehow different from those described by current science.
> > However, it does seem from both personal experiences and scientific
> > investigations(where anomalies are detected) that these anomalies are
> small
> > events embedded in the fabric of regularity. They could account for
> emergent
> > systems and possibly brain function but would not be a heavy handed
> > mechanism. Question is, if this is true, what does that say to theology?
> >
> > Steve Petermann
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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