From: Dr. Blake Nelson (bnelson301@yahoo.com)
Date: Sat Sep 06 2003 - 20:16:10 EDT
Hi Glenn,
I am pretty busy right now, so I have to wait to get
back to you re your replies to my comments on MWH, but
let me try to make a simple point that may have been
lost in my series of points before:
--- Glenn Morton <glennmorton@entouch.net> wrote:
> Hi Howard,
(SNIP)
> As I mentioned to Blake, I do need to modify this
> claim. Reincarnational
> religions could survive. But I see no way
> christianity could survive such a
> view. Everyone is saved, everyone is lost. Doesn't
> seem real meaningful to
> do that to Christianity. Remember that objects in
> identical quantum states,
> which is what many of these universes would be, are
> indistinguishable. Thus
> your comment below might be questioned.
I do not understand then, 1) what you mean by the
quantum states are indistinguishable. The whole point
of MWH is that there are other quantum outcomes, so
the states are distinguishable -- note, that you have
not explained, because I believe it impossible to do
so -- how salvation or damnation is a quantum
variable; 2) just because they are mathematically
indistinguishable to us, does that mean they are
indistinguishable to God? 3) and even assuming
everything you suggest is true -- and all your selves
despite some being Wiccan, some being christian, etc.
are indistinguishable in a quantum sense (and I think
to the extent the point has any validity, you mean
that the mathematics currently used to posit the
different versions are indistinguishable, which seems
to me just another mathematical artefact like the
block universe concept, which by your analysis would
also be a religion killer -- if you want I will
explain why later), why isn't this akin to the
lifelong atheist who repents later in life? Who is to
say that the salvific action of God vis-a-vis one of
you, when all the infinite "yous" are reconciled are
not saved by the saving action of Jesus in this
universe and your response to it? As I said, you
could just as easily, under the Everett MWH, say that
everyone is saved, because someone gets it right in
some universe.
Now, this certainly does not make anything willy-nilly
or random -- it seems to me that it even makes the
idea of all the universe being redeemed through Jesus
even more accurate, because, inter alia, it eliminates
the old chestnut that atheists and agnostics like to
throw out about being able to convert to christianity
being an accident of birth that has been denied most
people in history, since everyone does theoretically
have the opportunity and indeed does become saved
under the extremely extravagant claims of a maximal
Everett MWH hypothesis.
> >2. If there is another universe with sentient,
> morally-conscious creatures
> >in it, _my_ identity would not be affected. Even if
> there were another such
> >creature that was atom for atom identical to me
> structurally, it would not
> >be "me." I have not the slightest concern about
> there being a duplicate of
> >Glenn or Howard in any other universe, certainly
> not for reasons of
> >confusion about our eternal destinies.
>
> If there are universes in identical quantum states,
> they and your identity
> are indistinguishable. Since we have a very poor
> idea of what consciousness
> is, how it arises, or even what its nature is, we
> couldn't say we aren't
> 'living' in both universes, up till the time of the
> splitting of the
> universes suggested by Everett which then makes both
> universes
> distinguishable..
Please explain to me how your being a Wiccan and your
being a Christian can be identical quantum states.
Please also explain to me how God cannot distinguish
between the different yous.
Please also explain if all of you are really you and
consciousness just makes you think there is one you
why all of you, in that sense, are not saved if one of
you are saved? I think christian dogma is pretty
clear that just becuase you continue to sin after you
have been saved doesn't mean you are no longer saved
-- so if other yous that are really you continue to
sin, are you positing a new doctrine of double limited
atonement that atonement doesn't apply to you if you
are not elect in all possible universes? This is
theologically (and scientifically) rather absurd given
the piling of what ifs and what seem to me logically
inconsistent conditions on the hypothesis.
I look forward to reading your replies to my messages
when I have some time to give at least a
semi-thoughtful response!
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