From: Debbie Mann (deborahjmann@insightbb.com)
Date: Fri Sep 05 2003 - 09:54:37 EDT
From J. B.
"However, how does something exist for infinite time and reach the present?
This seems like an illogical statement, it can never exist for long enough
to reach the present and therefore is impossible to have always existed.
Thus time and "existence" must have a point of origin from which to count a
finite period of time, however great or small, to reach today."
Why? On an infinite line there are infinitely many points. They are in an
order, though not a countable one. Our moment is on the graph. The fact that
the moment exists, or that the point exists, does not mathematically depend
upon the rest of the line. Infinity does not effect, positively or
negatively, the fact that this point, and this segment exist. I am talking
about points in relationship to time. I am discussing the points as though
they were mutually independent events. We do not truly know the nature of
time. It is one of the great debates in physics. Perhaps it is not a
straight line through space, perhaps it is a thread winding randomly through
space. Perhaps it itself is a plane that cuts our space in a line. Perhaps
it is a manifold or sheet that is bent and curves in on itself and
intersects our three dimensional space in a curving line. Whatever it is, we
travel along points that do have an order and don't branch out into other
directions. At least not in human history. Perhaps there is a beginning
point where space and time first intersected. ANd then we get into the Big
Bang.
However it is, a do not believe that if a tree falls in the woods and noone
is there to hear it that there is no sound. I believe birds and deer will be
scurrying everywhere. And in the absence of breathing things that the ground
will shake and the leaves will vibrate on the trees. Sound is a disturbance
of air waves - not our perception of that disturbance. So, the points on a
line exist -regardless of our desire to be able to count from the beginning.
How would you count something continuously, anyway? We measure - and our
measurements are in units purely manmade. I do believe math is God created -
but I don't think he would have determined things like 'cup' and 'inch' -
nor our 'minute' and 'second' - too illogical.
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
Behalf Of Josh Bembenek
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:45 PM
To: hvantill@chartermi.net; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: Van Till's Ultimate Gap
>Help me understand why "infinite historical time" represents a problem to
>you.
If something has existed forever, we could describe its existence in the
following way
(-)infinity->Present->(+)infinity
We know that the present is here, and I don't have any problem with
something existing for infinity from now.
However, how does something exist for infinite time and reach the present?
This seems like an illogical statement, it can never exist for long enough
to reach the present and therefore is impossible to have always existed.
Thus time and "existence" must have a point of origin from which to count a
finite period of time, however great or small, to reach today.
Josh
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