From: bivalve (bivalve@mail.davidson.alumlink.com)
Date: Thu Aug 14 2003 - 15:32:00 EDT
The paleontological evidence includes the first animal fossils in the late Precambrian, the first probable evidence of predation (slight possibility of scavenging, but very unlikely) in the latest Precambrian, and definite evidence of predation (healed injuries and adaptations for killing prey) in the early Paleozoic. Conventional geologic dating puts these at over 500 million years before the appearance of humans. Even without regard to radiometric dating, the vast layers of rock between these and the first human traces points to a large amount of time. Flood geology does not solve the problem; apart from its many errors, the evidences of predation would still be present within flood-deposited strata, before the permission to eat meat. Specialized parasites also occur in the record starting in the Paleozoic; although killing the host is often exactly what they do not want to happen, nevertheless parasites on animals are incompatible with a ban on eating other animals.
Additional biological evidence includes the fact that cell death is an inherent part of growth and development for animals, so that the line between death and non-death is not as clear as might be thought, and the difficulty of assuming that the elephant would never have stepped on a bug.
The claim that the second law of thermodynamics was not in effect demonstrates ignorance of thermodynamics on the part of the claimant rather than providing a useful solution.
Theologically, note that spiritual death is much more prominent than physical death in Scripture. Adam and Eve did not keel over upon eating the fruit, but they did become spiritually dead. Jesus refers to the physically dead but spiritually alive as merely asleep. In Christ, the old self is dead, yet it remains an active nusiance until we are physically dead. Conversely, Scripture has little to say about the death of animals except as a symbolic sacrifice.
Holding that the death resulting from the Fall was spiritual death rather than physical death obviously solves the problem. Other posts have noted the possibility that the spiritual effects of the Fall could negatively impact things that lived before it, just as Jesus saved those who lived before His earthly life. Another possibility is invoking some role for Satan, who was obviously fallen before we were. Although it is important to not give him too much credit, this sort of approach has been developed in C. S. Lewis, Out of the Silent Planet and in Tolkein's Silmarillien. As with the malice of those calling for the crucifixion or the rapaciousness of the Babylonian armies (Habakkuk), this would involve God allowing those with evil motives to do something that He would ultimately use to the greater good. Animal death, as part of the balance of nature, is currently part of the wonder of creation.
Dr. David Campbell
Old Seashells
University of Alabama
Biodiversity & Systematics
Dept. Biological Sciences
Box 870345
Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0345 USA
bivalve@mail.davidson.alumlink.com
That is Uncle Joe, taken in the masonic regalia of a Grand Exalted Periwinkle of the Mystic Order of Whelks-P.G. Wodehouse, Romance at Droitgate Spa
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Jay Willingham" <jaywillingham@cfl.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:07:23 -0400
>Silly is the incessant, prideful insistence in the scientific community that
>pet hypotheses should be accorded theoretical status and pet theories be
>worshiped as irrefutable fact.
>
>Examples? a complete human genome with "junk" DNA now, maybe not junk DNA
>after all... Was it Goodall who was completely astonished when others
>discovered her beloved chimps were cannibalistic? Need we speak of Ms.
>Mead?
>
>Empirical science is as godly a pursuit of knowledge a person can embark
>upon. Too many scientists simply leap beyond the firm basis of empiricism
>to embrace as fact things not yet proven. All too frequently things are
>proven to not be as they seem.
>
>I tend to believe Sirius was indeed about 9 light years away. I must wait 9
>years or so to find out if it is still so today. I am not so sure about
>the geologic dating hypotheses....or global warming.... or the idea that we
>have saved the ozone layer.
>
>Jay Willingham
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "george murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>
>To: "Jay Willingham" <jaywillingham@cfl.rr.com>
>Cc: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; "ASA"
><asa@calvin.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 8:29 PM
>Subject: Re: different thread
>
>
>> Jay Willingham wrote:
>>
>> > That is your opinion.
>>
>> Of approximately the same sort as my "opinion" that Sirius is about 9
>light
>> years away. After all, no one's ever stretched out a tape to measure it!
>> Can we please stop silliness like this? If anybody can reject any
>> observation he/she wishes just by saying "That is your opinion" then
>there's no
>> point in discussing anything.
>>
>>
>> Shalom,
>>
>> George
>>
>
>
>
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