Re: The forgotten verses

From: Michael Roberts (michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jun 08 2003 - 08:16:07 EDT

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    I would say that Howard's response was a model of Christian gentility on
    what can only be described as garbage of the worst sort.

    I would suggest that Vernon begins to study sciences like geology and see
    what the conclusions are from them rather than dismissing them and
    persisting with his numerology and creationist fairytales

    I think it best if we simply switch on our delete buttons

    Michael
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
    To: "Howard J. Van Till" <hvantill@chartermi.net>
    Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
    Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 10:35 PM
    Subject: Re: The forgotten verses

    > Howard,
    >
    > I am surprised by the ferocity of your diatribe - yet, there is a sense in
    > which I am also encouraged by it. What you dismissively refer to as an
    > 'exercise in futility' is hardly that - as you would know had you studied
    > the evidence and made the logical inferences. And whether it will 'die a
    > quiet and peaceful death' is, I suggest, highly unlikely; accordingly, it
    > might be well for you to consider whether your RFEP is able to sit
    > comfortably with these new facts.
    >
    > Vernon
    > http://www.otherbiblecode.com
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Howard J. Van Till" <hvantill@chartermi.net>
    > To: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
    > Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
    > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 2:00 PM
    > Subject: Re: The forgotten verses
    >
    >
    > > >From: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
    > >
    > > The thinking part of me says to let this whole exercise in futility die
    a
    > > peaceful and quiet death. The rest of me, however, finds it difficult to
    > > resist one more comment.
    > >
    > > > I had hoped you would consider it important that we factored in to our
    > > > deliberations vis-a-vis how things began what the Scriptures have to
    say
    > > > about the nature of those who so deliberate.
    > >
    > > If the powers of human perception and deliberation are as corrupt and
    > > distorted as your usual rhetoric implies, then "surely you must agree"
    (to
    > > use one of your favorite rhetorical devices) that this corruption and
    > > distortion applies to your own perception and deliberations regarding
    the
    > > numbers that you declare to be a significant indicator of the character
    of
    > > the biblical text.
    > >
    > > > Regarding the numbers: I see them as fulfilling a complementary role
    in
    > > > confirming the text to be divinely-inspired -....
    > >
    > > The numbers to which you give so much your attention are declared (by
    you,
    > > after the fact) to be significant on the basis of nothing other than
    your
    > > own individual judgment (human judgment that you repeatedly disparage as
    > > untrustworthy). Your whole approach is a-theoretic. You have no basis
    for
    > > any independent theory to establish, "If the text is divinely inspired,
    > then
    > > it will generate numerical qualities of the following sort....." You
    > declare
    > > certain numbers to be significant only after you sift through the vast
    > > sandpile of numbers that can be generated from any text. You dispense
    > > numerous assertions of the form, "...surely you must agree...." without
    > the
    > > faintest semblance of warrant other than your own preconception of the
    > > character and intentions of God. How can this be anything but manifest
    > > hubris?
    > >
    > > > and that, surely, can be no bad thing.
    > >
    > > Surely? Bunk! On the contrary, I see the focus on numbers as a harmful
    > > distraction from focusing on the life-enhancing presence of the Sacred.
    > >
    > > Indeed, I believe the attention given to numbers here serves only to
    > enhance
    > > the bibliolatry that infects millions of contemporary Christians --
    > > especially in North America -- for whom the strident defense of humanly
    > > crafted statements about the biblical text seems far more important than
    > the
    > > living of a life enriched by the insights of the biblical text into the
    > > authentic human experience of Gods presence.
    > >
    > > > Indeed, I believe the numbers serve to enhance the ability of the
    > > > text to stimulate awe and worship.
    > >
    > > For your sake, Vernon, I hope that you find this to be true of your own
    > > experience. I do not find it so in my experience. I see it as the kind
    of
    > > enterprise that opens the door to warranted ridicule of religious
    beliefs.
    > >
    > > Howard Van Till
    > >
    >
    >
    >



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