From: George Murphy (gmurphy@raex.com)
Date: Wed Jun 04 2003 - 15:47:27 EDT
Apropos the info from Dave & Don below:
The mss Dave notes as containing _kamilon_ are of Mt.19.24 and Lk.18:25. There
appear to be no mss of Mk which have this reading at 10:25. Since Mk is likely the
source for Mt & Lk here, this suggests later emendation independently of other
considerations. In any case the evidence for _kamilon_ is, as Dave says, weak: The
more limited UBS apparatus - which I based my earlier remarks on - doesn't note these
readings.
I was able to look at a a somewhat (!) more recent ed. of Liddell-Scott, that of
1996. Under _kamilos_ it says:
"rope. Sch. Ar. V 1030, Suid. (Perh. coined as an emendation of the phrase
[Quotes Mt.19:24 in Greek] but cf. Arab /jummal/ 'ships's cable.')
So there hasn't been a great deal of change in 150 years.
Shalom,
George
D. F. Siemens, Jr. wrote:
>
> As far as the text is concerned, Nestle 16th ed., 1936, says that
> _kamilos_ occurs in one minuscule (59) and a few other unimportant
> minuscules and the Armenian version. The earliest minuscule noted is 6th
> century, most 8th and 9th, but 59 is not dated in the "Explanations."
> Apparently the Armenian version, not dated in Nestle, dates to the 5th
> century. Since it is not found in the ancient uncials, it is surely
> someone's emendation. I may note that, at least in modern Greek, iota and
> eta are pronounced identically, but I don't know how far back itacism
> goes.
> Dave
>
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2003 01:38:56 -0700 "Don Winterstein"
> <dfwinterstein@msn.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > A closer look at Joseph H. Thayer's Lexicon and kamilos:
> >
> > First, Thayer's preface indicates that his work dates from 1889--not
> > much
> > later than Liddell and Scott. (Furthermore, the Publisher's
> > Introduction
> > says he was a Unitarian and that some of his definitions reflect
> > Unitarian
> > teaching (e.g., Christ was a mere man).)
> >
> > With respect to kamilos, Thayer refers to Liddell and Scott
> > (1883-7th ed.)
> > and Franz Passow (1857); so proof that the word was not invented
> > seems to
> > depend crucially on whether Thayer's "Schol. on Arstph. vesp.
> > [1030]" (see
> > below) refers to a pre-NT manuscript or not. (For contemporary
> > readers it
> > would be nice if Thayer had a more complete list of his
> > abbreviations!)
> >
> > Evidence that Thayer's "Schol. on Arstph. vesp. [1030]" in fact does
> > _not_
> > refer to such pre-NT manuscript is in an appendix, where Thayer
> > lists
> > kamilos as a possible "New Testament Greek" word. By this I assume
> > he means
> > the word possibly originated as koine.
> >
> > Conclusion: George is right, we need a modern reference. All along
> > I'd
> > assumed Thayer was one, but he's not.
> >
> > Don
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > George Murphy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If I may quibble: An expert on textual criticism may correct me
> > but
> > there
> > > is no
> > > > "reading" /kamilon/ = "rope" rather than /kamelos/ = "camel".
> > It is
> > > instead a "textual
> > > > emendation" - i.e., a guess at what the text might originally
> > have been.
> > > That is a
> > > > legitimate procedure when the text we have is in such disarray
> > that it
> > > doesn't make any
> > > > sense - as is the case in some places in the OT, like parts of
> > Job. But
> > > otherwise it's
> > > > not appropriate.
> > > >
> > > > & here's something I hadn't noticed before. On looking up
> > /kamilos/ in
> > my
> > > > antique (1843!) Liddell-Scott, I find this note:
> > > >
> > > > "/a rope/: but probably invented merely to explain away the
> > well-known
> > > passage
> > > > in the N.T., /for a camel to go through the eye of a needle/,
> > etc.,
> > where
> > > a rope might
> > > > seem to us a more prob. image: but the Arabs have a proverb,
> > /like an
> > > elephant going
> > > > through a needle's eye/; and /to swallow a camel/ occurs in
> > N.T.; so
> > that
> > > this is
> > > > needless."
> > > >
> > > > But this was written before the discovery of a lot of the koine
> > documents
> > > so
> > > > don't rely on it without checking some newer reference.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (copyright
> > 1977) says,
> > > in part:
> > >
> > > "kamilos, ou, ho, a cable; the reading of certain Mss. in Mt. xix.
> > 24 and
> > > Lk. xvii. 25..... The word is found only in Suidas [1967c.] and
> > the
> > Schol.
> > > on Arstph. vesp. [1030].... "
> > >
> > > I don't comprehend all of Thayer's abbreviations and annotations,
> > but to
> > me
> > > this means that, apart from some NT manuscripts, the word is found
> > in only
> > > two other ancient manuscripts, one from around 1100 A.D. (Suidas)
> > and the
> > > other (possibly) from ancient Greece (Aristophanes?). So
> > apparently it
> > > wasn't "merely invented" but was very rarely used.
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> >
> >
-- George L. Murphy gmurphy@raex.com http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
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