Re: Does the Bible teach a flat earth?

From: John Burgeson (burgythree@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Dec 20 2002 - 11:36:53 EST

  • Next message: Jim Armstrong: "Re: science as a complement of cognitions is not necessarily science"

    Lucian wrote: "I think the problem here is different understanding of what
    the word science means. "

    I agree. As a matter of fact the various definitions of science will be a
    focus item in the five week SS class I'll be teaching starting the first
    Sunday in January at Montview Blvd Pres Church here in Denver.

    Among the definitions offered to spark our discussions (the class will be
    20% lecture and 80% discussions) are the following (still draft form).
    Comments and additions to this material cheerfully accepted. Most of the
    quotations include a citation; some, as yet, do not and may be paraphrases.

    III SCIENCE

    Many argue there is no adequate, satisfactory definition of science (even
    when narrowing the definition to the natural sciences). E.g., see
    Morelandís Christianity and the Nature of Science: A Philosophical
    Investigation. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1989.

    ìScientism is a scientific worldview that encompasses natural explanations
    for all phenomena, eschews supernatural ans paranormal speculations, and
    embraces empiricism and reason as the twin pillars of a philosophy of life
    appropriate for an age of Science Ö cosmology and evolutionary theory ask
    the ultimate origin questions that have traditionally been the province of
    relgionÖ .î Michael Shermer, Scientific American, June 2002, p. 35.

    In Webster's 1828 dictionary science is defined as: "SCIENCE, [from the
    Latin scientia, from scio, to know.]
    1. In a general sense, knowledge, or certain knowledge; the
    comprehension or
    understanding of truth
                    or facts by the mind. The science of God must be perfect.
    2. In philosophy, a collection of the general principles or leading truths
    relating to any subject. Pure
                    science, as the mathematics, is built on self-evident
    truths, but the term science is also applied to
                    other subjects founded on generally acknowledged truths, as
    metaphysics; or on experiment or
                    observation, as chemistry and natural philosophy; or even to
    the assemblage of the general
                    principles of an art, as the science of agriculture; the
    science of navigation. Arts relate to practice,
                    as painting and sculpture. A principle in science is a rule
    in art. Playfair.
               3. Art derived from precepts or built on principles.
    Science perfects genius. Dryden.
                    Any art or species of knowledge. No science doth make known
    the first principles on which it
                              buildeth. Hooker.
    4 One of the seven liberal branches of knowledge, viz, grammar,
    logic, rhetoric, arithmetic, geometry,
                    astronomy and music. Bailey, Johnson

    A scientist's verse: Psalm 27:4 -- "One thing have I desired of the Lord,
    that I will seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the
    days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in his
    Temple."

    Science ñ doing oneís best with oneís mind ñ no holds barred. ñ Bridgman

    ìScience is a systematic method of continuing investigation, based on
    observation, hypothesis, testing, measurement, experimentation, and theory
    building, which leads to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.î
    ñ adopted in 2002 by the Ohio State Board of Education..

    It is clear that science is not in contact with ultimate reality, but that
    it is describing the waves, and not the ocean.

    Trap of ìnothing butteryî thinking. (to be expanded)

    A definition of Intelligent Design by Angus Menuge, which opens his essay
    for a volume on ID and Darwinism that Bill Dembski is editing with Michael
    Ruse:

    "Intelligent Design (ID) argues that intelligent causes are capable of
    leaving empirically detectable marks in the natural world. Aspiring to be a
    scientific research program, ID purports to study the effects of intelligent
    causes in biology and cosmology. It claims that the best explanation for at
    least some of the appearance of design in nature is that this design is
    actual. Specifically, certain kinds of complex information found in the
    natural world are said to point convincingly to the work of an intelligent
    agency. Yet for many scientists, any appearance of design in
    nature ultimately derives from the interplay of undirected natural forces.
    What's more, ID flies in the face of the methodological naturalism (MN) that
    prevails throughout so much of science. According to MN, although
    scientists are entitled to religious beliefs and can entertain supernatural
    entities in their off-time, within science proper they need to proceed as if
    only natural causes are operative."

    There are many lessons to be learned from science. #1 is humility. ñ I. Rabi

    Nature abhors a vacuum. So does science. A theory continues to be viewed as
    authoritative until (and unless) supplanted by another theory. Theories do
    not purport to describe ìtruth,î but only a model of truth, always
    tentative. ñ subject to modification, change or a complete discard.

    The universe is not only queerer than we imagine, it is queerer than we can
    imagine. -- Haldane

    The work of Science is to substitute FACTS for appearances. - Ruskin, 1853

    "Science is a hierarchy of causal explanations characterized by increasing
    generalizations, quantifications, and mathematical simplicity arrived at by
    an inductive-deductive process characterized by isolation, control and
    repeatability."

    Three types of science:

            Measurement science. Experiment and run repeatedly. Physics, chemistry,
    some medicine, some biology
            Observational science. Regular events but little or no
    control. Astronomy,
    meteorology, ecology.
            Historical science. Events and processes in the past.
    Geology, archeology,
    origins, etc.

    Natural science is a disciplined and systematic human activity that includes
    observation, measurement, experimentation, theory formulation and theory
    evaluation. Activity in any one of these categories is likely to stimulate
    fruitful action in the others. The goal of the natural sciences is to
    understand what our physical universe is like, how it functions, and how it
    got to be the way it now is. To that end the sciences seek to craft theories
    that give an adequate/satisfying account of what can be observed
    (qualitative) and measured (quantitative) in our world.

    Given this concept of the natural sciences, the formulation and evaluation
    of the Grand Evolutionary Theory on the basis of what can now be observed
    and/or measured falls well within the scientific domain. Howard Van Till

    Science is the human attempt to understand the predictable, reproducible
    aspects of nature, with nature defined as that part of the physical universe
    with which we can interact.

    Science may be regarded as a minimal problem consisting of the complete
    presentation of facts with the least expenditure of thought. --Ernst Mach,
    as quoted in Wilsonís ON HUMAN NATURE

    The purpose of science is not to open the door to everlasting wisdom, but to
    set a limit on everlasting error. -- Bertold Brecht

    "When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in
    numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when
    you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and
    unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have
    scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the stage of science." - Lord
    Kelvin

    >From the point of view of the physicist, a theory of matter is a policy,
    rather than a creed; its object is to connect or coordinate apparently
    diverse phenomena, and above all to suggest, stimulate and direct
    experiment. J. J. Thompson, 1907

    Science is built up of facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of
    facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house. -- Poincare'

    In the end, Einstein came to embrace the view which many, and perhaps he,
    himself, thought earlier he had eliminated from physics in his 1905 paper on
    relativity theory: that there exists an external, objective, physical
    reality which we may hope to grasp - not directly, empirically, or
    logically, or with fullest certainty, but at least by an intuitive leap -
    one that is only guided by experience of the totality of sensible "facts".
    Events take place in a real world, of which the space-time world of sensory
    experience, and even the world of multidimensional coninua, are useful
    conceptions, but no more than that . . . Einstein . . . preferred to call
    his theory not "relativity theory", but the opposite: Invariantentheorie. It
    is unfortunate that this splendid, accurate term did not come into current
    usage, for it might well have prevented the abuse of relativity theory in
    many fields. - Gerald Holton, Thematic Origins of Scientific Thought,
    Harvard, 197

    It is an interesting question whether biology is physics writ large in the
    sense in which chemistry is certainly physics writ large. ñ John
    Polkinghorne

    One lasting product (of contemporary science) is the grand idea that the
    entire universe is governed by a few simple laws and that these laws are
    within human understanding. Leo Kadanoff, 1986

    At the highest level of mathematical sophistication, beyond numbers and
    relationships, are theories. The device for putting them into words is
    analogy, the very essence of scientific popularization. Physicists are
    comfortable with analogy because in some sense their whole enterprise, the
    modeling of nature by means of mathematical constructs, is analogical. --
    Hans Christian von Baeyer, 1986

    As a scientist, I share the credo of my colleagues: I believe that a factual
    reality exists and that science, though often in an obtuse and erratic
    manner, can learn about it. -- Gould, THE MISMEASURE OF MAN, p 22, 1981.

    "The scientist is by profession a map-maker; and like other map-makers he is
    pledged to allow his own particular values to distort as little as possible
    the representation he makes of the state of affairs. 'Whether I like it or
    not, or you like it or not, that's the way it is as far as I can see.' In
    this sense, he strives to make scientific knowledge 'value-free.' His maps
    are meant to be reliable guides to other people, of whose values he knows
    nothing; so 'scientific detachment' and 'depersonalization,' far from being
    arbitrary eccentricities of the trade, are all part of his duty as an honest
    craftsman.... His maps are not merely of observables but of correlations
    between observables and (in due course) of interacting causal factors." -
    Donald M. MacKay, PERSPECTIVES, Vol 38, # 2, June 1986.

    Any understanding of the mechanisms of perception forces us to acknowledge
    that we have no direct access to the world. Rather, our knowledge of it
    consists of our perceptions and the inferences we draw from them.
    - Tim Mead, 1986 (Platoís Cave concept)

    Science, by definition, should reduce the description of more complex
    phenomena to that of simpler ones. Niels Bohr, 1932

    Science -- The human attempt to understand the predictable, reproducible
    aspects of nature, with nature defined as that part of the physical universe
    with which we can interact.

    Science -- Investigations of the natural world based on the fundamental
    principle of Ockham's (or Occamís) razor. This is a rule in science and
    philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly. It is
    interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is
    preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be
    attempted in terms of what is already known. Also called THE LAW OF
    PARSIMONY. It was first formulated by William of Ockham (1285-1347)

    "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum description.
    It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is.
    Physics concerns what we can say about Nature." -- Neils Bohr

    "The conclusions reached by the scientific enterprise are determined not
    merely by observations and experiments, but by the outcome of debates about
    how to interpret observations and experiments, and such debates can be
    influenced by a variety of factors (incl. politics, religion, personality,
    various background beliefs, aesthetic commitments, etc)."
    -- Allan Harvey

    ìNatural science is a disciplined and systematic human activity that
    includes observation, measurement, experimentation, theory formulation and
    theory evaluation. Activity in any one of these categories is likely to
    stimulate fruitful action in the others. The goal of the natural sciences is
    to understand what our physical universe is like, how it functions, and how
    it got to be the way it now is. To that end the sciences seek to craft
    theories that give an adequate/satisfying account of what can be observed
    (qualitative) and measured (quantitative) in our world.

    Given this concept of the natural sciences, the formulation and evaluation
    of the Grand Evolutionary Theory on the basis of what can now be observed
    and/or measured falls well within the scientific domain.î -- Howard Van
    Till

    The physical continuum, and with it all the beautiful machinery of physics,
    is myth. John Wheeler, 1988

    "Nullis in verba" (Take nothing on faith) Royal Society of London, 1660

    Five Science myths (from FRONTIERS OF ILLUSION:

    1 Infinite benefits. More science = more public good.
    2 Unfettered research. Any line equally likely to produce a good.
    3 Accountability.
    4 Authoritative. Objective basis to resolve political issues.
    5 Endless frontier. New knowledge has no moral connection.

    John W. Burgeson (Burgy)
    www.burgy.50megs.com

    >From: Lucien Carroll <ucarrl01@umail.ucsb.edu>
    >To: asa@calvin.edu
    >Subject: Re: Does the Bible teach a flat earth?
    >Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:16:51 -0800
    >
    >I think the problem here is different understanding of what the word
    >science means. I tend to look at a science as something one _does_, as
    >it appears Michael does. But the word is also used to mean knowledge of
    >the natural world, and sometimes merely potentially apprehensible
    >knowledge as it appears you, Rich, mean. The two of you are talking
    >about entirely different things, both called science.
    >
    >RFaussette@aol.com wrote:
    > > In a message dated 12/19/02 1:16:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    > > michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk writes:
    > >
    > >> Science continually changes. I have nothing more to say. I am afraid
    >to say
    > >> that to look for science in the bible is the height of folly and
    >reduces
    > >> the Bible to drosnin's code.
    > >
    > > no - science does not change - your apprehension changes - maybe
    >there's
    > > something new out there you have not previously apprehended. I have
    >nothing
    > > more to say.
    > > rich
    > >
    >
    >
    >--
    >Lucien S Carroll ucarrl01@umail.ucsb.edu
    >"All mankind is stupid, devoid of knowledge."
    >-Jeremiah 51:17a

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