This post concerns the site: www.BibleWheel.com
George, thank you for your detailed post! Except for its content, its
precisely what I had hoped for! (LOL)
But seriously folks ....
> Richard - Please note that I am posting this to you privately, not to
> the asa list in general.
I am glad you erred in posting this to the list. You bring up many important
issues that should be discussed. I hope you will be willing to continue it
out here in the open air.
> I am sorry to have to give you what may appear to be a rude
> reception to the list, but the
> type of argument which you present is very questionable theologically.
I see (almost) nothing rude in your reply. It seems to be an honest
representation of your point of view, and as such, it is of great value!
> Let me just note a few points.
> 1. As David Campbell points out in a post to the list, the
> numbering of 66 books in traditional protestant Bibles has no
> fundamental significance.
This must be classified as an >opinion<. I hold a different one, and I think
I have many cogent reasons to do so.
> 2. The reference to the King James Bible on your website
> failed to note that the original KJV contained the books of the
> Apocrypha in a separate section, in this regard being similar to
> Luther's translation. See my earlier post to the list for further
> detail on this.
Actually, I did not >fail<, rather I >chose< not to note that particular
fact along with myriad others. All I said in respect to the KJV was (I
quote) "These seven divisions follow the traditional order of the Christian
Canon as exemplified in the King James Bible." My primary purpose was to
emphasize that I did not invent this structure myself, but that it has been
established in one of the most widely published versions of the Bible to be
found on the planet. This fact is extremely important when evaluating a
claim such as mine. For example, FW Grant, in his "Numerical Bible," loved
the number seven so much that he recombined just enough of the books to
arrive at the number 63, a multiple of seven. Such activity is patently
absurd and devoid of any fundamentally significance. I was merely pointing
out that the structure of the Bible, as exemplified in the KJV, is not a new
thing, so that any structure discovered in it was not the result of my
"fudging the data." With regards to the Apocrypha, there is an on-going
debate as to whether it is inspired Scripture. The fact that I ignore it, in
concert with millions of Christians, presents no argument what-so-ever
against my thesis .
> 3. Accepting the protestant canon for the sake of argument, the
> division of it into 7 parts as you do is arbitrary.
I did not do it. I merely reported the traditional divisions as presented by
numerous scholars over hundreds of years.
>E.g., there is no
> logical or theological reason for separating "major" and "minor"
> prophets.
> In the Hebrew Bible, e.g., all of those are included with
> some of the historical books as "the former and latter prophets."
This is simply wrong. The Tanach (pub by JPS) presents the "12 Minor
Prophets" as a separate category from the rest. Furthermore, this division
is extremely ancient, being sited in the apocryphal book of Sirach (vss.
48:8-10) and confirmed by the esteemed scholar Lee M. McDonald in his "The
Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon" (pg 34) where he wrote: "The
reference to the Twelve Prophets suggests that by the time of Sirach, the
"Minor Prophets" circulated in one scroll."
How can you argue against the obvious fact that the structure I present is
not arbitrary? It is an objective historical fact that I received. I did not
invent it!
> One could equally well divide the epistles into the Pauline ones
addressed
> to specific churches or persons and the catholic epistles, or put
> Revelation in a separate New Testament category.
Yes, one may do whatever one wishes, but one can not then expect others to
consider such actions the work of God. This is why I am so adamant in my
reiteration that this structure has been >discovered< after the fact, and
therefore can not be attributed to the deliberate design of any human.
> 4. The claim that this "proof of the divine origin of the Holy
> Bible" is "self-evident" raises immediate suspicion. (Vernon Jenkins
> makes similar claims.)
Sorry George, this is ad hominem. You should know better.
>It's a form of argument from intimidation - what
> one of my physics profs called the "any fool can see" proof.
You have miscategorized my statement. It was not part of any argument, it is
simply >my< opinion of the result of my research. Such statements of the
author's opinions are typically found on >introductory pages< which is where
you found the one that offended you. The actual arguments are found in the
work itself!
> But if
> this seems too harsh, we could try an empirical approach: How many
> people on the asa list, most of whom are Christians with some scientific
> training, will accept this "proof" at first glance, as they should if
> it's self evident.
Nothing is self-evident in the form you suggest. Something must be
>apprehended< before anything about it becomes self-evident. My intention
was to convey my understanding that when the Wheel is truly apprehended, and
it is recognized that the sevenfold structure of the Canon exhibits both
radial and bilateral symmetry, with the line of bilateral symmetry dividing
between the Aleph and the Tav, and that the Tav in Hebrew means mark, sign,
or CROSS, and when all these facts are integrated in the mind enlightened by
the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ, - that then the BELIEVER will receive the
gift of perception that the Bible is a single, God-breathed geometric unity,
and God will be greatly glorified in His Word.
> 5. This "proof" has nothing to do with Christ, who is the
> center of scripture. You do cite John 20:31 as giving the purpose of
> the Bible (which requires a extension, albeit a legitimate one, from the
> purpose of the 4th Gospel to that of the whole of scripture), but the
> divine character of the Bible is supposedly to be proven quite apart
> from any christological considerations.
All I can say to this is that you have utterly failed to >apprehend< even
the most rudimentary points of my argument. I challenge you to find a single
page where any of my arguments lack in Christological reference! Everything
about the Wheel points to Christ and His work on the Cross. That's why the
whole Bible is structured on the Number 22, which corresponds to Tav,
pointing to the Cross. That's why there is a Cross at the center of the
Wheel. Read Psalm 22 in light of 22 = Tav = Cross and you will understand a
little of the depth of the Mind of God Who has given us His Eternal Word.
> This means that in principle a
> person could accept the Bible as wholly inspired, true, authoritative &c
> - & then start to try to find out what it's about! That way lie all
> sorts of sectarian pitfalls.
It means no such thing. I'll explain why in another post if you want to
pursue this point.
> A person comes to believe that the Bible is a true witness to
> God's ultimate revelation in Christ
> when he or she has come to believe in Christ through that witness. "If
> you will not believe, surely you shall not be established" (Is.7:9).
Excellent statement! I could not agree more!
> I want to be clear that I am not questioning the quality of your
> Christian faith.
Nor would I question yours. Thank you for acknowledging this important
point.
>But I think that the way in which you're trying to
> prove the divine origin of scripture is fraught with several kinds of
> problems. & it's not necessary. The Holy Spirit will bring people to
> faith in Christ by the preaching of Christ, not by questionable
> mathematical arguments.
Unfortunately, you have missed my main point, even though you quoted it. Let
me repeat myself (from my homepage:)
The Wheel of God demonstrates that the entire body of Scripture is a
geometric unity - a perfect, compact, complete and symmetric structure. It
provides immediate, self-evident proof of the divine origin of the Holy
Bible, but more significantly, (much more significantly!) it yields endless
insight in the mind of God. For this is the true purpose of Scripture, which
was given that
ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that
believing ye might have life through his name. -- John 20.31
The fact that the Wheel proves the Bible is of God is an inevitable
side-effect of its true purpose, which is simply to >know God<.
Shalom to you George. I pray my response will not seem harsh. I greatly
value intelligent criticism.
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