----- Original Message -----
From: "John Burgeson" <burgy@compuserve.com>
> You continue: "Here is a rewrite of it. In order to advance the
> conversation you need to respond to my points in this regard rather than
> making the same statement again. Both
> freewill and God's foreknowledge are perfectly compatible as is
illustrated
> by the mathematical object known as Sierpinski's Gasket,... "
>
> OK, I'll respond to this one. Your gasket example is a clever, and even
> interesting, little
> computer exercise. What it has to do with the issue, however, IMHO, is
zip.
Why? God can allow us to make free choices, yet our preprogramming via our
genetics constrains the outcome--regardless of what choice we make. Take
pharoah who said no to Moses. What if he had said yes? Would he have been
over thrown by the military and the same miracles been required? Regardless
of the choice, I believe that the result would have been the same--the
pattern God wanted.
>
> I see you using the word "preprogrammed" in a less than rigorious way.
>
> I am "preprogrammed" in my present corpus to be constrained by the
> laws of gravity. If thats all you mean by the word, so be it. It is a 50c
> word
> where a 5c word will do.
No, you are not pre-programmed to be subject to the laws of gravity. there
is nothing in your genetics upon which gravity is dependent and without this
programming gravity wouldn't exist.
>
> I am glad you have all this stuff worked out so well. I am not
> in such a fortunate (?) position myself.
>
> You write later, " After 20,000 iterations it will produce the pattern
seen
> at
>
> http://home.flash.net/~mortongr/sier.gif
>
> Thus the dot may feel perfectly free--indeed it is perfectly free-- but it
> is confined to a particular pattern."
>
> Really? Or just in the (finite) number of times you've tried it?
Burgy, you can get the program and run it a billion iterations and the
pattern will be the same. Mathematically the rules won't let the dot go
elsewhere other than where it does go. More iterations only builds more
detail into the triangle. You can enlarge it and find greater detail in the
inscribed triangles down to infinity. The dot never escapes in spite of it
having 3 choices. There are systems that have higher degrees of freedom. The
program on my web page call select.exe or evolve.exe have 4 degrees of
freedom. I could have written one with 100 degrees of freedom but it would
get boring.
>
> What about the 1 in 3**20,000 times when "chance" comes up with
> exactly the same answer on each iteration? That will happen, you know.
There are 3^20000 different sets of choices that lead to the same
conclusion---Sierpinski's gasket.
>
> I find the scriptures obscure on the subject of determinism. Certainly
SOME
>
> things seem to be determined, but not most things. Did Pharoh have a
choice
> in his
> debates with Moses? I think so -- at least up to a point -- then "God
> hardened
> his heart." (He had previously "hardened his heart himself).
Pharoah certainly had a choice. But if he had said yes, I think something
would have turned the answer to a no. The only difference between the
situations would be that Pharoah would have been rightious by saying yes
instead of what he is.
>
> Did Judas have a choice? Is it possible, if not, that he had a chance to
> repent? Was his actions predetermined from the beginning of humanity?
Judas had a choice. Do you think that the pharisees had only spoken to
Judas? They had probably approached several of the disciples.
>
> Always appreciate jousting with you. The time will come when we both
> understand how wrong we both are
Amen to that one. And my wife will tell me at that time, "I told you so."
:-)
>
glenn
Foundation, Fall and Flood
Adam, Apes and Anthropology
http://www.flash.net/~mortongr/dmd.htm
Lots of information on creation/evolution
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