David Campbell wrote:
>
> >Much knowledge that portents to have "scientific" basis has support from
> >rigorous laboratory testing. I like to call this "hard science" and
> >maybee there is a better term but I want to differentiate this from
> >"forensic science" is this is important. The differentiation is
> >significant because those who want science to be our beacon want
> >"forensic science" to have the same standing as "hard science."
> >
> >HS can be tested by an experiment. The experiment is quantitative and
> >can be repeated by many researchers over many generations. At some
> >point, it can be accepted as truth but the underlying issue is always
> >that the next generation should extend, test, and re-think.
>
> However, there is a forsenic component. I cannot experimentally determine
> whether you performed an experiment. Instead, I have to rely on the
> evidence that an experiment took place in the past. If a minor mutation in
> coelacanths produces toes like those of early amphibians, genetically
> related to the method of producing toes in modern tetrapods, it seems
> reasonable to suggest that was probably the mechanism by which they
> evolved, just as my replicating an experiment from your lab suggests that
> we did things the same way.
>
> >However(oops), the counter to this (and Carl Sagan tells of this in one
> >of his books) is the crazy little fruit fly. Dawg gone it. They have
> >raised millions and millions of these little bugs and put all kinds of
> >evolutionary stress on them and they just will not evolve( at least
> >according to Sagan).
>
> Given that geneticists do not want them to evolve into new kinds, this is
> not exactly surprising. Assuming there were some use to having antennae
> growing out of its head, eyes all over, or other bizzare mutations that
> have been produced in the lab, it seems likely that they would develop into
> very different kinds of organisms under natural conditions, and in fact the
> hundreds of kinds of fruit flies in Hawaii, the stalk-eyed flies of New
> Guinea, and the flightless bat commensals of New Zealand show that fruit
> flies can evolve into all sorts of things. However, geneticists want their
> flies to interbreed so they can study the genes. A new species goes into
> the trash, not into publication.
>
> Under particular selective regimes, the fruit flies have evolved. For
> example, when males were artificially bred so that female success did not
> affect them, they evolved
********************
Here is that great elastic word again, evolved. And, it seems to mean
almost anthing depending on the agenda of the user. What I want to see
is invention of a new organ. To make it clear, how about a sonar for the
fruit fly. Not small changes but something that clearly passes the
proported irreducible complexity barrier. We stipulate small changes
and changes in gene frequencies and improved hardiness and longer legs.
Has there been a fruit fly that developed a sonar in these laboratory
tests?
***************
<ways of outcompeting other males that were also
> disadvantageous to the females.
>
> In other words, Sagan is not a biologist.
***********************
Perhaps we should refer all knowledge statements to the experts. Sagan
officially was trained as a planetary astronomer so lets burn his books
about life, evolution, no-God, and the like. Lets have all such people,
regardless of any self education or intellectual skills relagated to
only making statements in their official sphere. Then, we can have the
correctness of evolutionary thinking determined by evolutionary
biologists. High bandwidth people will be banned from working outside
of what they are officially responsible for and their certification.
For example, all moral guidelines will be determined by the specialists
such as philosophers like for instance Marx.
Futher, anytime an inbreed profession is challenged from the outside,
instead of responding to the issue, all that is necessary is that they
brand the intruder with a comment such as "Sagan is not a biologist."
This certainly makes my life easier because now I will know that instead
of thinking I can go to the writings of those certified to pronounce
truth.
****************
Bert M.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Jan 16 2000 - 13:57:25 EST