Allen Roy wrote:
>If Havilah were the same place as mentioned later, where is the Pishon
>River? This river remains unknown.
>If Cush were the same place as mentioned later, where is the Gihon? This
>river remains unknown.
>The post flood Tigris runs through the heart of ancient Asshur, not to the
>east of Asshur.
>The Euphrates is not associated with any region, yet in the post flood
>world, it is the river of mighty Nimrod's Babylon.
>The post-flood people were likely named for pre-flood people of note. So
>post-flood areas named after post-flood people could also have pre-flood
>namesakes. Post-flood Asshur may have named the river running through his
>kingdom the Tigris after the river which ran BY the pre-flood region named
>after his namesake.
>The Euphrates, who's headwaters rise from the mountains of Ararat, may have
>been named by Noah and family as one of the first rivers they encountered.
>I don't see any compelling evidence that Gen. 2 is describing the
>Post-Flood world.
It describes not only the post-flood world, it describes the pre-flood world.
Same world, well, land. Same rivers. Same towns. Perhaps it is more easily
seen working backwards instead of forwards. Let's start with Abraham at Ur
(Gen.11:31). Ur is Ur. Woolley excavated it. It's on the map near the mouth
of the Euphrates. It was destroyed about 2,000 BC by the Gutians and
Elamites. (Remember Shem's first kid - Elam in Gen.10:22?
Babel (Gen.11:9) means "gate of God" and corresponds to the ziggurat built to
honor Anu, the father-god in heaven, at Babylon. It was rebuilt by king
Nebuchadnezzer and written about by Herodotus. It was built out of
fire-burnt,
mud-bricks lined with asphalt just as described in Gen.11:3. The "land of
Shinar" is a dead giveaway.
In Accadian, "plg" means "canal," and in Peleg's day (Gen.10:25) the land was
divided by a network of canals used for irrigation and transportation. "The
border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza"
(Gen.10:19), is no mystery. The Gaza strip and Sidon are on present-day maps.
Asshur (Gen.10:11,12) is located 230 miles due north of Babylon on Wadi
Tharthar. Calah is located on the Tigris about 25 miles south of Ninevah.
Ninevah is one of the oldest cities in the region dating to 5000 BC (pre-flood
date). It was settled by Semites over 1,000 years after its founding, and was
called "Ninua" from the beginning even before the Semites arrived.
The location of Babylon is known (Gen.10:10), and Erech is the Sumerian Uruk
where the legendary Gilgamesh is listed on the post-flood kinglist. Accad has
not been found, but is known from Sumerian records and was the home of the
great Sargon of Agade who united the entire region by conquest in 2371 BC or
thereabouts. The town of "Birs Nimrud" appears to be named after "Nimrod" in
Gen.10:8.
"Fountains of the deep" (Gen.8:2) is common Assyrian terminology for the
irrigation canals. The "pitch" in Gen.6:14 can be found oozing out of the
sand
in present-day Iraq which sits on millions upon millions of barrels of oil.
The "Nephilim" or giants in Gen.6:4 in the pre-flood period can be identified
as those from whom the sons of Anak descended in Num.13:33, which is the
post-flood period. Thus we have biblically identified flood-survivors, but we
knew that anyway because we have found the remains of native Americans
dated to
over 13,000 years ago and Australia was populated some 50,000 years ago.
Noah ("rest" or "comforter"), Ziusudra ("he who laid hold on life of distant
days"), Utnapishtim ("he saw or found life"), and Atrahasis ("the exceeding
wise"), all are heros of a local flood legend whose very names are reflective
of the famous ark builder. Enmenduranki, listed 7th in the Sumerian pre-flood
king list as Enmendurranna, was the king and sage of Sippar (cult center
dedicated to the sun god) who was taken by the gods and taught divine
mysteries
- reflective of Enoch who "walked with God" (Gen.5:22).
The city of Enoch (Gen.4:17) is listed as "E-Anna(k)" in the Sumerian
post-flood kinglist as the place where kingship was carried after Kish was
"smitten with weapons." It's located at Erech, and is still called "Eanna" to
this day. A canal ran from Erech located north of the Euphrates to Eridu just
south of the Euphrates and was used for trade between the two cities.
Eridu, the oldest city in the region according to archaeologists, was home to
"Alulim," listed first on the Sumerian kinglist and to "Adapa" who was, well,
"created" an "exemplary man." Eridu was a fishing village located on the
Persian Gulf, which was some 30 miles further north than it is today. Eridu
was just west of the junction of some rivers.
The Euphrates (Gen.2:14) is the Euphrates. The Hiddekel is the Tigris which
lies just east of the city of Asshur, or "goeth toward the east of Assyria" in
Moses speak. Cush means "black" and this threw the translators off enough
that
they put "Ethiopia." Actually, Cush was home to the Cushites who settled in
Persia. Writing in 1864, M'Causland identified the Gihon as the "Gyudes"
of the
ancients, the modern Karkheh joined by the Kashkan river in the region of
Cush,
or Kush, in Eastern Mesopotamia - today called Khuzistan in Iran.
The fourth river, the Pison, was found only recently. Archaeologist Juris
Zarins using LANDSAT space images discovered a "fossil river" which neatly
rounds out the quartet. This was independently reported by James Sauer in
1996
in "The River Runs Dry: Creation Story Preserves Historical Memory." in
Biblical
Archaeology as mentioned earlier by Ray Zimmer.
This river, the Pison apparently, once flowed through northern Arabia where
gold is mined to this day. S. R. Driver placed Havilah (Gen.2:11) in The Book
of Genesis published in 1938: it was "most probably" in the northeast of
Arabia
on the west coast of the Persian Gulf: "The gold of Arabia was famed in
antiquity."
Thus, all the rivers are known, the towns are known, and the people are known.
Dick Fischer - The Origins Solution - www.orisol.com
"The answer we should have known about 150 years ago."
--=====================_21936500==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Allen Roy wrote:
>If Havilah were the same place as mentioned later, where is the
Pishon
>River? This river remains unknown.
>If Cush were the same place as mentioned later, where is the
Gihon? This
>river remains unknown.
>The post flood Tigris runs through the heart of ancient Asshur, not
to the
>east of Asshur.
>The Euphrates is not associated with any region, yet in the post
flood
>world, it is the river of mighty Nimrod's Babylon.
>The post-flood people were likely named for pre-flood people of
note. So
>post-flood areas named after post-flood people could also have
pre-flood
>namesakes. Post-flood Asshur may have named the river running
through his
>kingdom the Tigris after the river which ran BY the pre-flood region
named
>after his namesake.
>The Euphrates, who's headwaters rise from the mountains of Ararat,
may have
>been named by Noah and family as one of the first rivers they
encountered.
>I don't see any compelling evidence that Gen. 2 is describing
the
>Post-Flood world.
It describes not only the post-flood world, it describes the pre-flood
world. Same world, well, land. Same rivers. Same
towns. Perhaps it is more easily seen working backwards instead of
forwards. Let's start with Abraham at Ur (Gen.11:31). Ur is
Ur. Woolley excavated it. It's on the map near the mouth of
the Euphrates. It was destroyed about 2,000 BC by the Gutians and
Elamites. (Remember Shem's first kid - Elam in Gen.10:22?
Babel (Gen.11:9) means "gate of God" and corresponds to the
ziggurat built to honor Anu, the father-god in heaven, at Babylon.
It was rebuilt by king Nebuchadnezzer and written about by
Herodotus. It was built out of fire-burnt, mud-bricks lined with
asphalt just as described in Gen.11:3. The
"land of Shinar" is a dead
giveaway.
In Accadian, "plg" means "canal," and in Peleg's day
(Gen.10:25) the land was divided by a network of canals used for
irrigation and transportation. "The border of the Canaanites was
from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza" (Gen.10:19), is no
mystery. The Gaza strip and Sidon are on present-day maps. Asshur
(Gen.10:11,12) is located 230 miles due north of Babylon on Wadi
Tharthar. Calah is located on the Tigris about 25 miles south of
Ninevah. Ninevah is one of the oldest cities in the region dating
to 5000 BC (pre-flood date). It was settled by Semites over 1,000
years after its founding, and was called "Ninua" from the
beginning even before the Semites arrived.
The location of Babylon is known (Gen.10:10), and Erech is the Sumerian
Uruk where the legendary Gilgamesh is listed on the post-flood
kinglist. Accad has not been found, but is known from Sumerian
records and was the home of the great Sargon of Agade who united the
entire region by conquest in 2371 BC or thereabouts. The town of
"Birs Nimrud" appears to be named after "Nimrod" in
Gen.10:8.
"Fountains of the deep" (Gen.8:2) is common Assyrian
terminology for the irrigation canals. The "pitch" in
Gen.6:14 can be found oozing out of the sand in present-day Iraq which
sits on millions upon millions of barrels of oil.
The "Nephilim" or giants in Gen.6:4 in the pre-flood period can
be identified as those from whom the sons of Anak descended in Num.13:33,
which is the post-flood period. Thus we have biblically identified
flood-survivors, but we knew that anyway because we have found the
remains of native Americans dated to over 13,000 years ago and Australia
was populated some 50,000 years ago.
Noah ("rest" or "comforter"), Ziusudra ("he who
laid hold on life of distant days"), Utnapishtim ("he saw or
found life"), and Atrahasis ("the exceeding wise"),
all are heros of a local flood legend whose very names are reflective of
the famous ark builder. Enmenduranki, listed 7th in the Sumerian
pre-flood king list as Enmendurranna, was the king and sage of Sippar
(cult center dedicated to the sun god) who was taken by the gods and
taught divine mysteries - reflective of Enoch who "walked with
God" (Gen.5:22).
The city of Enoch (Gen.4:17) is listed as "E-Anna(k)" in the
Sumerian post-flood kinglist as the place where kingship was carried
after Kish was "smitten with weapons." It's located at
Erech, and is still called "Eanna" to this day. A canal
ran from Erech located north of the Euphrates to Eridu just south of the
Euphrates and was used for trade between the two cities.
Eridu, the oldest city in the region according to archaeologists, was
home to "Alulim," listed first on the Sumerian kinglist and to
"Adapa" who was, well, "created" an "exemplary
man." Eridu was a fishing village located on the Persian Gulf,
which was some 30 miles further north than it is today. Eridu was
just west of the junction of some rivers.
The Euphrates (Gen.2:14) is the Euphrates. The Hiddekel is the
Tigris which lies just east of the city of Asshur, or
"goeth toward the east of
Assyria" in Moses speak. Cush means "black" and this
threw the translators off enough that they put
"Ethiopia." Actually, Cush was home to the Cushites who
settled in Persia. Writing in 1864, M'Causland identified
the Gihon as the "Gyudes" of the ancients, the modern Karkheh
joined by the Kashkan river in the region of Cush, or Kush, in Eastern
Mesopotamia - today called Khuzistan in Iran.
The fourth river, the Pison, was found only recently. Archaeologist
Juris Zarins using LANDSAT space images discovered a "fossil
river" which neatly rounds out the quartet. This was
independently reported by James Sauer in 1996 in "The River Runs
Dry: Creation Story Preserves Historical Memory." in Biblical
Archaeology as mentioned earlier by Ray Zimmer.
This river, the Pison apparently, once flowed through northern Arabia
where gold is mined to this day. S. R. Driver placed Havilah
(Gen.2:11) in The Book of Genesis published in 1938: it was
"most probably" in the northeast of Arabia on the west coast of
the Persian Gulf: "The gold of Arabia was famed in
antiquity."
Thus, all the rivers are known, the towns are known, and the people are
known.
Dick Fischer - The Origins Solution -
www.orisol.com
"The answer we should have known about 150 years ago."
--=====================_21936500==_.ALT--